France and Italy go Red post-war: Is Europe screwed?

EvolvedSaurian

What if a few more people had voted Communist in the post-war elections? Would the US or Britain intervene? Would France or Italy face civil war? Would the domino effect play its way through the rest of Europe?

Would Italy and France pull a China?

Would the Pyrenees become the newest battleground?
 

Mike999

I think even just france going red would be a huge disaster for the west.With a communist government in their rear it would be all but impossible for the Americans and british to keep their troops in West Germany supplied in the event of war.Which would mean either pulling out and letting Stalin waltz in or if they stay and fight then the Nuclear option would problay be unleashed a lot earlier than it might have been otherwise.
 

Max Sinister

Banned
Some western European Communist parties were Euro-Communist (and esp. those in France and Italy) - Communist yes, lackeys of Stalin no. The Soviets tried to influence them secretly (incl. secret financial support), but they didn't work for overthrowing the French/Italian democracy. (Some rightists claimed that, but how much of that is propaganda?)
 

The Sandman

Banned
How closely tied to Stalin were the Italian and French Communist Parties? Because things could get very interesting if France and Italy follow Yugoslavia into non-alignment; I don't think Stalin would be overly thrilled at any real possibility of an alternative to Russia arising amongst the international movement.
 

birdy

The Sandman said:
How closely tied to Stalin were the Italian and French Communist Parties? Because things could get very interesting if France and Italy follow Yugoslavia into non-alignment; I don't think Stalin would be overly thrilled at any real possibility of an alternative to Russia arising amongst the international movement.
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I thought they both had traditions of closely towing the line from Moscow, maybe i'm mistaken though.
 

mikegold

I am under the impression that "Euro-Communism" did not arise until later, and that at this time French and Italian communists took orders from Moscow.

Also note France's large empire. How would Thorez deal with, say, Ho Chi Minh or Ahmed Ben Bella?

This idea is deserving of an entire TL.
 

audace12

About Italy,the communist party after the war was very pro-Stalin,in fact the communists were dreaming that Stalin would come to "liberate" Italy.After the '68 changes,the party changed his view towards euro.communism.
 

HueyLong

Banned
He is correct in thinking that Italy's communists were Stalinist- mainly because the moderates had been bled out by the Fascisti.

But in France? They were far from Stalinist. They had a liberal bent, and were also associated, sometimes, with the Christian left. The socialist left had strength, and it had variety. Far from being a Stalinist haven.
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
Mike999 said:
I think even just france going red would be a huge disaster for the west.With a communist government in their rear it would be all but impossible for the Americans and british to keep their troops in West Germany supplied in the event of war.Which would mean either pulling out and letting Stalin waltz in or if they stay and fight then the Nuclear option would problay be unleashed a lot earlier than it might have been otherwise.
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That's certainly true, a communist France would quickly close all the German Baltic ports by....uh....osmosis?:rolleyes:

Besides, you say yourself, "in the event of war". Europe was Russia's for the taking throughout the entire cold war, the only thing that stopped it was the US nuclear umbrella and the world's fear of same.

Even a doctrinaire Stalinist government in France and Italy wouldn't stay so for long. Think of three big Yugoslavias with great influence and prestige rather than one little country. Possible outcomes include no lron Curtain and maybe even no Cold War, with an earlier "fall" of communism, replaced by a Euro type Social Democracy over the whole area by the 1960's
 
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LordKalvan

French communist were even more pro-Moscow than the Italian ones.
Italian communist started to distance themselves from Moscow in 1956, after Krutschev made the famous speech about Stalin's crimes. The real breach (and the birth of euro-communism) was in 1968, after the invasion of Prague.

French communist never really dissociated from Moscow, they were the most faithful communist party in western Europe.

However, keep in mind that French CP was much smaller than Italian CP (one to 2, more or less), and the respective socialist parties were the other way around.

At the Italian elections in 1948 Christian Democrats won, with a lot of support (and money) from the USA. There were talks of stuffed ballots, but IMO nothing very outrageous happened.
I suppose that a red victory might have provoked an American-sponsored coup, and possibly a civil war.
 

Wozza

Grimm Reaper said:
Tielhard, that was how Europe was saved.:D
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Grimm, you cannot measure salvation through misleading bourgeois concepts like personal liberty, external security and prosperity.

Salvation means being part of an oppressive society, possibly even with feudal elements in the policy (like father and son succession), that professes commitment to some distant utopia and defies the USA.

Really, I should have thought that obvious.
 
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