Dutch Dominated Germany

Is there anyway to get the dutch to be the controlling power in a modern german empire in 2006? This germany would include austria, flanders, Alsace-Lorraine, and what would be known as Prussia (but prussia as we know it does not need to ever exist). Bonus points if Bohemia and Morovia are included.

Does a surviving, more powerful Burgundy count? They started as a French fief, but later they were predominantly Dutch and Flemish...

I suppose as long as they end up being a distinctly german empire. As I see it the dutch are germans, and they just became independant of the other germans and developed their regional identity until they became a seperate culture. So, what I am asking is, is there anyway for the dutch to remain german and come to dominate the rest of the germanic peoples of continental europe, excluding the scandinavians?

wiking said:

I suppose as long as they end up being a distinctly german empire. As I see it the dutch are germans, and they just became independant of the other germans and developed their regional identity until they became a seperate culture. So, what I am asking is, is there anyway for the dutch to remain german and come to dominate the rest of the germanic peoples of continental europe, excluding the scandinavians?

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I suppose them a part of the holy roman empire, even in the hanseatic league would help.

wiking said:

Is there anyway to get the dutch to be the controlling power in a modern german empire in 2006? This germany would include austria, flanders, Alsace-Lorraine, and what would be known as Prussia (but prussia as we know it does not need to ever exist). Bonus points if Bohemia and Morovia are included.

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The most simple solution is for Philip the Handsome to not marry Joanna the Mad. It would be beneficial for the HRE to retain an alliance with Spain throughout the 16th century. A lot depends on the religious policies of whoever is Holy Roman Emperor during the 16ith and 17th centuries. If Germany and Bohemia are not depopulated by the Thirty Years War, the Netherlands will become very rich and have to be granted Elector status. When the industrial revolution hits Dutch Bankers will be in a prime position to benefit. Germany would have three power centers; The Netherlands, Austria and Prussia. Under a liberal constitution such as proposed by the 1848 Frankfurt assembly, Dutch financial centers could overbalance the influence of Austria or Prussia.

How much of "Germany" would have to be included?

As much as possible. This is the Reich after all. I don't like TL with more than one german state.

Bosemacher said:

The most simple solution is for Philip the Handsome to not marry Joanna the Mad. It would be beneficial for the HRE to retain an alliance with Spain throughout the 16th century. A lot depends on the religious policies of whoever is Holy Roman Emperor during the 16ith and 17th centuries. If Germany and Bohemia are not depopulated by the Thirty Years War, the Netherlands will become very rich and have to be granted Elector status. When the industrial revolution hits Dutch Bankers will be in a prime position to benefit. Germany would have three power centers; The Netherlands, Austria and Prussia. Under a liberal constitution such as proposed by the 1848 Frankfurt assembly, Dutch financial centers could overbalance the influence of Austria or Prussia.

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Nice...Write that stuff up.....Run with it

wiking said:

As much as possible. This is the Reich after all. I don't like TL with more than one german state.

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Must not like OTL then

wiking said:

As much as possible. This is the Reich after all. I don't like TL with more than one german state.

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So no Independant Luxemurg, Lichtenstien, Austria, or parts of Switzerland? And what kind of German states are we talking here? Lombards, Burgunds, Vandals, Alans, Franks?

@Bosemacher: That's an idea... the Habsburgs get Burgundy, but not Spain, Bohemia or Hungary. The schwerpunkt of their empire soon moves from Austria to the Netherlands (Charles V saw himself more as a Dutch or Flame, being raised in Gent). Let them inherit / conquer Jülich-Kleve-Berg (lower Rhineland) later, and then, step for step...

I always liked the idea of dualism in Germany, competition would always help and maybe could keep foreign powers out of German affaires.

So I'd let Charles the Bold have a son instead of a daughter, thus no marriage between Habsburgs and House of Burgundy. And he conquers Switzerland (so here's Switzerland for your Uber-Reich, as well as large parts of France). Thanks to economically importance, the Netherlands become the center of the lands of Charles the Bold. Burgundy stays independent and in the following centuries fights France - as it always did - but still expands to Germany: Rhineland, Alsace, Palatinate. Maybe Burgundy gets Spain, maybe the Habsburgs.
In the meantime, the Habsburgs expand in the East much as they did in our timeline. Thus we could end up in a "trialism" where Austria, Prussia and Burgundy fight for domination in Germany, and Burgundy will finally win.

Anyway: you got the Netherlands, expand them into Germany to ensure that they become Germans thanks to cultural influence over centuries. Then you simply have to unite a Reich, that's it

I'd really be interested to see a full TL for this written by someone who understands medieval history better than me.

Homer said:

I always liked the idea of dualism in Germany, competition would always help and maybe could keep foreign powers out of German affaires.

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Nitpick: This is completely untrue, as seen most extreme in 1806 when the minor powers (on the command of Napoleon) left the HRE, causing it to end.
Or, hell, try the seven years' war - Prussian/Austrian dualism which dragged the whole of Europe into it.

I'm thinking of doing this in a TL quite late on, post *Napoleonic Wars...I think the most important part would be disqualifying Austria and Prussia as potential competitors as uniters of Germany.

Kabraloth said:

Nitpick: This is completely untrue, as seen most extreme in 1806 when the minor powers (on the command of Napoleon) left the HRE, causing it to end.
Or, hell, try the seven years' war - Prussian/Austrian dualism which dragged the whole of Europe into it.

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You're totally right that dualism was not "good" for Germany. But I think a Union would be even worse!

Imagine, somehow someone succeeds in uniting Germany several hundred years earlier. The dutch, the Prussians, the Austrians, Luxemburgs, Hohenstauffen - whoever you want - succeeds. In the following time, every major war in Europe would be fought on German soil with German interference. As it was in medieval times, when the Holy Roman Emperor had to deal with everything: French, Hungarians, Popes, Pagans, Sarazens, local princes, Italians, Normans, Byzantines...
I doubt that there would be less wars then OTL when a united Germany occurs earlier. And probably in most wars, united Germany would be looser. In this timeline, always at least parts of Germany were winners

A united Germany wouldn't have the possibility to expand into Hungary, as the Habsburgs did, or dominate Italy. It wouldn't have the opportunity to expand into Poland, as the Prussians did. And it wouldn't have the opportunity to build up a colonial empire as the Dutch did. It would rather be the other way round: French expansion would mean war for the whole Empire. Ottoman Expansion would mean war for the whole empire. Swedish Expansion would mean war for the whole Empire. And civil wars would add to that, too.
You would need a VERY strong Empire to survive such an onlsaught - every couple of years!

On the other side, if you want to create a timeline with a really great Germany, you can make use of dualism or trialism: a Cold war like atmosphere in Germany itself makes every competitor try to expand within the HRE, but most of all without it. Every foreign power could accept this: three major european powers in Germany balancing themselves out - but as soon as they are united....

I don't quite accept that. While it is certainly possible, OTL being the example with the HRE, if germany was UNITED not like OTL it would come to dominate europe. We would have a strong country with a large population, natural borders to the south and a history of having a warlike population. Also, civil wars would be uncommon or rare if the monarch is strong enough like the french monarchs were until the end. With this lack of internal dissent, the people and resources of the country should allow for expansion and containment of threats, so long as an italian adventure isn't constantly draining strength away. It seems that the natural expansion for this germany would be east as france would be too strong, italy is too remote, the balkans would be too much trouble without dynastic unions and poland is relatively weak. Also, with dutch trade to help finance these conflicts, I could see germany coming out on top. I could be wrong though.

wiking said:

I don't quite accept that. While it is certainly possible, OTL being the example with the HRE, if germany was UNITED not like OTL it would come to dominate europe.

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The sheer number of 'ifs' this requires makes this a classic ASB nationwank scenario.

wiking said:

We would have a strong country with a large population, natural borders to the south and a history of having a warlike population.

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Define exactly what a 'warlike population' is, and how exactly that would benefit Germany in warfare.

wiking said:

Also, civil wars would be uncommon or rare if the monarch is strong enough like the french monarchs were until the end. With this lack of internal dissent, the people and resources of the country should allow for expansion and containment of threats, so long as an italian adventure isn't constantly draining strength away.

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And we have this unbroken stream of strong monarchs how? What you're proposing would require (at the very least) a completely different social system, less like OTL Germany than like OTL France. Consequently, the Germany that resulted would be almost unrecognizable.

wiking said:

It seems that the natural expansion for this germany would be east as france would be too strong, italy is too remote, the balkans would be too much trouble without dynastic unions and poland is relatively weak.

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Why would Poland inevitably be weak and France invariably strong? A Burgundian or Dutch dynasty would most likely focus its expansionist efforts towards France or northern Italy and use buffers like the Prussians to the east.

wiking said:

Also, with dutch trade to help finance these conflicts, I could see germany coming out on top.

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A united Germany would have no Dutch trade. The Dutch mercantile system was the result of the Netherlands having no resource-rich hinterland, a very unique set of circumstances which would not come about in this scenario.

wiking said:

I could be wrong though.

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If you want to write an ASB nationwank scenario, go ahead. If you were making a serious historical proposal at the beginning, this whole scenario is completely off base.

My question originally was if the dutch could come to be the strongest force in a united germany. Maybe I need to do more research about european history, but it just doesn't make sense to me that france could unify under a monarch while the HRE manages to plod along for so long. ASB TL do have their appeal sometimes, but this is not what I am looking for here. I would go to the ASB board if I were. As far as warlike, the germanic tribes were known for their ferocity and they did topple to Roman Empire, the strongest entity in europe at that time. I am aware that the empire was in a mortal decline, but it seems like everytime the germanic peoples had to accomplish something, they resorted to violence. Now, history is just a hobby of mine and I have dabbled in most of european history with an emphasis on the world wars. One thing that bothers me though, is how germany became the battleground of europe throughout the
1400-20th century, generally because of this disunity. It has never made sense to me why some strong king was never able to form a kingdom rather than a patchwork of various regions with their own rulers. I'm part german, so I do have a bias . I personally think that a strong germany would be able to prevent and at least end quickly most of the petty wars in europes history. I may be wrong in my opinion, but without germany having to prove itself in the 20th century and pissing off most of the powerful nations, we may never have had the world wars. However, TL may have been even more bloody, but somehow I doubt it.

wiking said:

My question originally was if the dutch could come to be the strongest force in a united germany. Maybe I need to do more research about european history, but it just doesn't make sense to me that france could unify under a monarch while the HRE manages to plod along for so long. ASB TL do have their appeal sometimes, but this is not what I am looking for here. I would go to the ASB board if I were. As far as warlike, the germanic tribes were known for their ferocity and they did topple to Roman Empire, the strongest entity in europe at that time. I am aware that the empire was in a mortal decline, but it seems like everytime the germanic peoples had to accomplish something, they resorted to violence. Now, history is just a hobby of mine and I have dabbled in most of european history with an emphasis on the world wars. One thing that bothers me though, is how germany became the battleground of europe throughout the
1400-20th century, generally because of this disunity. It has never made sense to me why some strong king was never able to form a kingdom rather than a patchwork of various regions with their own rulers. I'm part german, so I do have a bias . I personally think that a strong germany would be able to prevent and at least end quickly most of the petty wars in europes history. I may be wrong in my opinion, but without germany having to prove itself in the 20th century and pissing off most of the powerful nations, we may never have had the world wars. However, TL may have been even more bloody, but somehow I doubt it.

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Dutch dominated Germany......

Dutch population- 16 million, give or take...

Population of modern Bavaria- around twelve and a half million.

Population of Baden-Württemberg- 10.7 million.

Population of Lower Saxony- 8 million.

Indeed, the only state that outnumbers the Netherlands is North Rhine-Westphalia.

So it's possible, I suppose.