Alexander the Mediocre
- Thread starter Alikchi
- Start date
Max Sinister
Banned
At first, it's not even sure that he comes to power at all. Second, if he still declared war on Persia, he could die in the first battle at Granikos river. Greek civilisation doesn't spread through the Middle East and Egypt. Maybe some later Macedonian king (if he's competent enough) tries to defeat Persia again, but it's difficult.
HelloLegend
Banned
I don't think Alexander left much of a legacy in any conquered area.
It's not like the Indians today are Greek anything.
It's not like the Egyptians today eat Gyros.
And I haven't heard Jewish being affected.
His empire collapsed soon after his death.
And everyone went about doing what they were doing
before he got there.
It's not like the Indians today are Greek anything.
It's not like the Egyptians today eat Gyros.
And I haven't heard Jewish being affected.
His empire collapsed soon after his death.
And everyone went about doing what they were doing
before he got there.
HelloLegend
Banned
Oh plus, the Library at Alexandria is lost from history, anyway,
so any of that learning is also thrown out the window.
so any of that learning is also thrown out the window.
NapoleonXIV
Banned
Good Christ, son.
The Ptolemies ruled Egypt for Three hundred years, Cleopatra was Greek.
Traces of Greek influence are replete throughout all of Central Asia. Half the settlements there claim to have begun as Greek settlements.
The Hindi Pantheon has Iskander as a god.
Read (I think) Maccabees in the Bible, ask yourself how the king being revolted against is named Antiochus Epiphanes. (He's a Seleucid, one of the dynasties that Alexander's Empire broke up into.)
After nearly 3 millenia just how much influence do you wnat from an Empire that only stayed together as a unit for a few years?
And Gyros is Turkish food, the name first used in the 1970's.
NapoleonXIV
Banned
You can't be serious. Was that the thing in the other thread too? Boy is my face red. Caught again by the lack of a smiley.
Good Christ, son.
The Ptolemies ruled Egypt for Three hundred years, Cleopatra was Greek.
Traces of Greek influence are replete throughout all of Central Asia. Half the settlements there claim to have begun as Greek settlements.
The Hindi Pantheon has Iskander as a god.
Read (I think) Maccabees in the Bible, ask yourself how the king being revolted against is named Antiochus Epiphanes. (He's a Seleucid, one of the dynasties that Alexander's Empire broke up into.)
After nearly 3 millenia just how much influence do you wnat from an Empire that only stayed together as a unit for a few years?
And Gyros is Turkish food, the name first used in the 1970's.
Completely agree, the cultural impact of Alexander's conquests are massive,
Antioch, Alexandria, god knows how many other places Greek cities.
HelloLegend go to wiki and look up Hellenistic Age, or the Selucids or.... anything!
Max Sinister
Banned
@HelloLegend: The Greek philosophy influenced the thinking of ALL the people in the countries Alex conquered. They may not be aware of it today, for you'd need at least ten professors to trace the development of science, religion and philosophy, but it's there.
NapoleonXIV
Banned
Without Alexander maybe the Greek cities revive and adopt Macedonian tactics. A new Pericles arises who recognizes the deficiencies of pure democracy and tries to adopt a softer version of Plato's Republic. As time goes on they hit upon the idea of the separation of powers.
Athens becomes again the pre-eminent military power. She fights a short sharp war with Rome and then the two form an alliance that will not break for millenia. Periclean science revives, bolstered by learning from the now friendly and progressive Achmaenids, who see in Greco-Roman political forms a way to preserve and reinforce their sagging power by forming a Republic-Monarchy. Steam power is developed and steel smelting widespread by 200 BCE. The modern world is roughly duplicated by 400 CE.
Athens becomes again the pre-eminent military power. She fights a short sharp war with Rome and then the two form an alliance that will not break for millenia. Periclean science revives, bolstered by learning from the now friendly and progressive Achmaenids, who see in Greco-Roman political forms a way to preserve and reinforce their sagging power by forming a Republic-Monarchy. Steam power is developed and steel smelting widespread by 200 BCE. The modern world is roughly duplicated by 400 CE.
Flocculencio
Donor
Exactly- even in India which was only Hellenised at the periphery you'll find traces of Hellenistic heritage that are treasured. Further East too- even in Malay culture the tales of Iskander have come through from Indian and Muslim sources.
Sigh... history has a lot of room for opinion, but there are some things that are just not arguable. There is no argument that would could ever make saying Alexander did not have large impact become true.
Back on topic. I think this would drastically retard the success of the Romans, as long as no Alexander-esque figure takes out Persia anyways. Part of the reason the Romans had a fairly easy time acquiring the East was because Alexander had already broken Persian power, and divided their massive empire into several weaker states. If Persia stays around, Rome and uber-Persia might have to co-exist- I don't think either state would be strong enough to deal a deathblow to the other. I could see a lot of cross-colonization. This sounds familiar- is there some TL out there that I read but don;t recall that deals with Rome and Persia?
I could see the Greek city-states keeping their independence, but being aligned with either one of the superpowers in a Cold War-esque situation
Back on topic. I think this would drastically retard the success of the Romans, as long as no Alexander-esque figure takes out Persia anyways. Part of the reason the Romans had a fairly easy time acquiring the East was because Alexander had already broken Persian power, and divided their massive empire into several weaker states. If Persia stays around, Rome and uber-Persia might have to co-exist- I don't think either state would be strong enough to deal a deathblow to the other. I could see a lot of cross-colonization. This sounds familiar- is there some TL out there that I read but don;t recall that deals with Rome and Persia?
I could see the Greek city-states keeping their independence, but being aligned with either one of the superpowers in a Cold War-esque situation
Actually in Egypt I came across many parallels to Greek cuisine... I recall dolmades, moussaka, and other dishes, but with Arabic names. As for gyros specifically, Middle Eastern cuisine does include pita bread, skewered meat, and yogurt-based sauces similar to tzatziki. Of course, seeing as thousands of years have passed since Alexander's time, both Egyptian and Greek cuisine have strongly influenced and changed by invading cultures and their neighbors.
HelloLegend
Banned
Good Christ, son.
After nearly 3 millenia just how much influence do you wnat from an Empire that only stayed together as a unit for a few years?
.
You make my point when you reveal that only MINOR differences from Alexander's Empire show up in today's world of the North Africa, Middle East and India... compared to the major change of Romans vis-a-vis Europe.
Well the problem with Alexander's Empire is that there was a lot more evidence of it, but then a later Empire (Caliphate is a more accurate term, I guess) with a distinct culture happened to come in and be more dominant. A more dominant Empire with a distinct culture never showed up in Europe after the Romans.
HelloLegend
Banned
Alexander's invasion of Middle East/India comparable to Mongol Invasion of
China... something the locals eventually recovered from...
Goto Hongzhou today, and see how much the Mongol presence is NOT felt there.
Goto India, and see how Alexander's influence is NOT felt.
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Goto Washington D.C., and see how the Greco-Roman presence is FELT.
Senators, the alphabet, buildings.
China... something the locals eventually recovered from...
Goto Hongzhou today, and see how much the Mongol presence is NOT felt there.
Goto India, and see how Alexander's influence is NOT felt.
-----------------------------
Goto Washington D.C., and see how the Greco-Roman presence is FELT.
Senators, the alphabet, buildings.
Don't be disingenous and use India as an example, pick a region Alexander conquered fully.
Go to the Eastern Mediterannean, and see how similar all the cuisine is.
Go and see what language all documents written in a region stretching from Cairo to Kabul were written in for 800 years
Go to the Middle East, and reflect on how Islam spread so quickly largely due to Alexander's creation of one broad cultural group.
Go read an older version of the Bible
Go look at the DNA of many Central Asians
Go to Central Asia and see how many towns and monuments were founded by Greeks.
HelloLegend
Banned
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Why would I make "your debate points for you"
If you wish to make debate points, make them.
But don't tell me "do your research" for your side of the debate.
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My POINT is its HARDLY noticable...
"Go and see what language all documents written in a region stretching from Cairo to Kabul were written in for 800 years"...
The GOAT farmer still tends GOATS in Kabul, and he's not reading Greek mythology.
In Washington D.C, where GREEK and ROMANS did make a huge influence,
u NOTICE the PRESENCE.
In Afghanistan, do not notice. That's my point.
Of course DNA butterflies.
DNA will butterfly after 3000 YEARS, even if one goat farmer is not herding.