I recall reading that Sweden was friendly to the Central Powers before and during WW1. What if they had actually joined? Would Russia have been able to take the pressure of another front? What territory would Sweden be promised, besides Finland. Could the Central Powers win the war?
Sweden joins the Central Powers
- Thread starter EvolvedSaurian
- Start date
Russia would have to divert troops farther north rather than throwing them west, or they risk losing St. Petersburg. This could lead to an earlier collapse of Russia so Germany and A-H can put more troops in France and Italy.
JMO, but if the Nazi's got checked for two years +, 10,000 Scandinavians wouldn't have turned the tide in St.Petrsburg, them folks went through a bit of a meat grinder..how many bodies you got ?...just sayin
HueyLong
Banned
Except the Soviets didn't have mass desertions, soldiers lynching officers, or revolution in the streets during WWII.........
And, the Russian front had less German casualties because the Russians did not use modern defensive technology well enough. There weren't major trench lines in the east......
And, the Russian front had less German casualties because the Russians did not use modern defensive technology well enough. There weren't major trench lines in the east......
The Admiral Essen POD
Sweden had 6 infantry and 1 cavalry division readily available and could mobilize 6 reserve infantry divisions in a few weeks. This could put pressure on the Russians esp. in late 1915 (around the time of Lodz) or during the Gorlice Tarnow offensive. They may have been a threat to disrupt the railraod the Russians built to Murmansk which became a very important source of supplies for the Russians in 1916.
The problem is that while King Gustav wanted very much to go to war with Russia the ruling Socialists were dead set against it. There though a little known workaround to this. The aggressive commander of the Russian Baltic Fleet, Admiral Essen thought it was highly probable that Sweden go to war and was on his way with the Batlic Fleet to confront the Swedish navy at Gotland to demand that they abandon that base and not come back. Essen reported to a general who decided this was a bad idea and sent wireless recall orders. If this confrontation had occurred it may have angered the Swedish Socialists enough to propel them into the war.
Sweden had 6 infantry and 1 cavalry division readily available and could mobilize 6 reserve infantry divisions in a few weeks. This could put pressure on the Russians esp. in late 1915 (around the time of Lodz) or during the Gorlice Tarnow offensive. They may have been a threat to disrupt the railraod the Russians built to Murmansk which became a very important source of supplies for the Russians in 1916.
The problem is that while King Gustav wanted very much to go to war with Russia the ruling Socialists were dead set against it. There though a little known workaround to this. The aggressive commander of the Russian Baltic Fleet, Admiral Essen thought it was highly probable that Sweden go to war and was on his way with the Batlic Fleet to confront the Swedish navy at Gotland to demand that they abandon that base and not come back. Essen reported to a general who decided this was a bad idea and sent wireless recall orders. If this confrontation had occurred it may have angered the Swedish Socialists enough to propel them into the war.
Going on what Tom B says that may cause more havoc for Russia then anything. Shifting troops, Fins who would welcome liberatrion from Russia (maybe Germany promises a little of Finland but promises the Fins a Finland).
If this is in 1915 then I think Sweden is rather free from British attacks. The High Seas fleet close enough to defend its new ally, and I do not think Norway is an option here.
If this is in 1915 then I think Sweden is rather free from British attacks. The High Seas fleet close enough to defend its new ally, and I do not think Norway is an option here.
<rubs hands together>
Excellent, seems we have something here.
13 divisions would do quite a lot. Ironic that Essen was an ethnic German.
I think Finns would prefer Sweden to becoming a Russian satellite once things settle down.
Norway would probably be off-limits unless they join the Entente. Then, the gloves would come off.
Excellent, seems we have something here.
13 divisions would do quite a lot. Ironic that Essen was an ethnic German.
I think Finns would prefer Sweden to becoming a Russian satellite once things settle down.
Norway would probably be off-limits unless they join the Entente. Then, the gloves would come off.
Redbeard
Banned
Awaiting the thread to be moved I wonder if a new front in Finland will have the Russian turn down ambitions vs. Germany and A-H. If that means they are short of the horrendous casualties of the OTL battles it might also prevent the revolution.
Anyway Sweden joining the CPs will seriously push the Scandinavian equilibrum, and I guess the British will land in Norway, with or without the consent of the Norwegian Government. If they want to be sure of a succesful operation they need to control the Baltic entrances around Zealand/Copenhagen too however. If so they can easily cut off Sweden and any German reinforcement sent there.
But Copenhagen was strongly fortified then and the waters around Zealand heavily mined. Until the minefields are swept, which in itself can be very costly with both the Danish (incl. 15-20 coastal subs) and German Navies defending them, and Copenhagen taken, the Germans can freely reinforce and supply Denmark and Sweden. Copenhagen then was surrounded by a fortification line built from late 19th century and into WWI. It included 14" guns for controlling the Oeresund. The field army was five infantry and one cavalry Division and concentrated on Zealand around Copenhagen. Formally neutral Denmark then in practical terms was a vassal of Germany and the mining of the Baltic Entrances was done on German request at the outbreak of WWI.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
Anyway Sweden joining the CPs will seriously push the Scandinavian equilibrum, and I guess the British will land in Norway, with or without the consent of the Norwegian Government. If they want to be sure of a succesful operation they need to control the Baltic entrances around Zealand/Copenhagen too however. If so they can easily cut off Sweden and any German reinforcement sent there.
But Copenhagen was strongly fortified then and the waters around Zealand heavily mined. Until the minefields are swept, which in itself can be very costly with both the Danish (incl. 15-20 coastal subs) and German Navies defending them, and Copenhagen taken, the Germans can freely reinforce and supply Denmark and Sweden. Copenhagen then was surrounded by a fortification line built from late 19th century and into WWI. It included 14" guns for controlling the Oeresund. The field army was five infantry and one cavalry Division and concentrated on Zealand around Copenhagen. Formally neutral Denmark then in practical terms was a vassal of Germany and the mining of the Baltic Entrances was done on German request at the outbreak of WWI.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
HueyLong
Banned
Nope. The Revolution was simmering quite a bit. Mirs were being enforced, as were their taxes and decisions. Supply problems were abundant (more so with another front), the socioeconomic landscape is still bad, the Russian military is still inept- if the war goes on past 1914, the Russians have a Revolution, IMO.
Redbeard
Banned
Social tensions does not necessarily make a revolution let alone have it suceed.
There had been revolutions in Russia before, but as far as I can see the big difference in 1917 was the Army practically dissolving in mutiny, and the big losses in the previous battles being the main cause. Even the Generals told the Zar that they dodn't want no more. Without the mutinies the infant Red Army would be nothing but a few amateurs who could easily be defeated by a few squadrons of Cossacks and a whif of grapeshot.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
Neroon
Banned
I cannot really see Britain taking that risk in 1915 or 1916. It's not like they had plenty of divisions sitting around with nothing better to do
. And the Royal Navy trying to get control of the Baltic is really going to make the day of the "Kleinkrieg" strategists in the German HighSees Fleet.Especially though, if you add the political and diplomatic risk of Britain attacking two neutral countrys. The U.S. had a significant Scandinavian population and if not only Sweden joins the CP, but also Norway and Denmark get attacked by the Entente, they might snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in the Propaganda War.
@TomB1: The Socialist were not in fact ruling. A Conservative minority gouvernement was in charge ( remember
? ) .Election results (previous election):
Höger/Conservative 86 (64)
Socialists 73 (64)'
Liberal 71 (102)
There just never was a chance of enough Liberals and Socialists voting to join the war in OTL. A Russian pre-emtive strike could of course change that.
Last edited:
Regarding Sweden's rewards-maybe the Petsamo area and towards Murmansk, whilst still creating an independent Finland? I'm also under the impression that there were a number of small islands off the coast of Estonia with ethnically Swedish populations (I don't mean the Alands!)- maybe they could be ceded as potential military bases.
Max Sinister
Banned
I'd also say that 13 more divisions could make some difference. Although the Swedes would have to fear that Russia decides to attack THEM first, since they're the weakest link. OK, in that case Germany would have to ship some divisions to the frozen North and save them.
Interesting consequence: Germany might adopt an "attack East" strategy sooner, which is more promising anyway.
Interesting consequence: Germany might adopt an "attack East" strategy sooner, which is more promising anyway.
Redbeard
Banned
I cannot really see Britain taking that risk in 1915 or 1916. It's not like they had plenty of divisions sitting around with nothing better to do
Especially though, if you add the political and diplomatic risk of Britain attacking two neutral countrys. The U.S. had a significant Scandinavian population and if not only Sweden joins the CP, but also Norway and Denmark get attacked by the Entente, they might snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in the Propaganda War.
I was thinking of the forces deployed in the OTL Dardanelles, which eventually involved some 480.000 men of which about 80.000 were French. That ought to be enough, it is hardly possible to deploy more men in Scandinavia. But it all preconditions that Copenhagen can be taken. It will at least require a pronounced will to take heavy casulaties. At least half the force + considerable naval forces would be needed vs. Copenhagen
I will not outrule the possibility of Norway joining the Entente, it afterall was only in 1905 they gained full independence from Sweden, and not in a cordial atmosphere. Some Swedish remarks about reconsidering the independence and...(well, if they can join the CPs, why not this too?).
It will anyway be very bloody, but I guess the main problem is taking Copenhagen fast enough to keep the Germans from landing strong forces in Sweden and throwing the Entente out of Norway, or to avoid total failure before that.
There were Entente plans of Baltic adventures, and Adm. Fisher at least claimed that the big light cruisers of the Courageous class were specialised for Baltic operations. At least one of the plans involved gaining control of the Baltic and thereafter landing a Russian Army on the coast north of Berlin.
If Sweden already has joined the CPs and the Entente has landed in Norway, I guess the Danish government by Berlin will be asked to stuff neutrality, and I doubt they will have any other option. Germany certainly wasn't popular in the broad Danish public, who had 1864 in fresh memory, but nobody really questioned the Government's policy of staying close to Germany, perhaps because Denmark anyway would be close to Germany. Next there were no recent tradition for alliance with UK, on the contrary. UK had been THE enemy in the Napoleonic Wars and of no help in 1864.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard