WI Richard II married Yolande of Aragon?

I recently came across a highly interesting tidbit of information when reading the English monarch series bio on Richard II: apparently after the death of his first wife Anne of Bohemia Richard opened negotiations with Aragon for the hand of Princess Yolande. The same Yolande that later directed the French cause during the last phase of the Hundred years war. Unfortunately for England, Richard was persuaded to marry Isabelle de Valois, the daughter of Charles VI of France. And the rest, well we all know.

So what if, instead of accepting the French proposal, Richard instead pressed ahead with the Aragonese match and married the future Queen of Four Kingdoms? Would this have any affect on Richard II's reign? If so and the King rules longer, what role would Yolande play in England? Would she be able to do the same for England that she did for France? Please discuss!

Emperor Constantine said:

I recently came across a highly interesting tidbit of information when reading the English monarch series bio on Richard II: apparently after the death of his first wife Anne of Bohemia Richard opened negotiations with Aragon for the hand of Princess Yolande. The same Yolande that later directed the French cause during the last phase of the Hundred years war. Unfortunately for England, Richard was persuaded to marry Isabelle de Valois, the daughter of Charles VI of France. And the rest, well we all know.

So what if, instead of accepting the French proposal, Richard instead pressed ahead with the Aragonese match and married the future Queen of Four Kingdoms? Would this have any affect on Richard II's reign? If so and the King rules longer, what role would Yolande play in England? Would she be able to do the same for England that she did for France? Please discuss!

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Yolande would most likely not have any children with her husband, who was probably sterile. If this is true, then in 1400, when she's 18, she most likely either just leaves England is marries one of the Lancasterian Princes , or even Henry IV of England if he thinks she's a good investment. If so, then they would probably have a child, who if he is a son, will be a great heir separately from his brothers.

Kynan said:

Yolande would most likely not have any children with her husband, who was probably sterile. If this is true, then in 1400, when she's 18, she most likely either just leaves England is marries one of the Lancasterian Princes , or even Henry IV of England if he thinks she's a good investment. If so, then they would probably have a child, who if he is a son, will be a great heir separately from his brothers.

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There's no proof that Richard was sterile. It could have just as easily been Anne who had the problem.

Emperor Constantine said:

There's no proof that Richard was sterile. It could have just as easily been Anne who had the problem.

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That is true. So let's say he isn't and, after marrying her in say 1390, they have their first child in 1397 (when she is 15, thus old enough to have a healthy child), probably named Edward. They maybe get a second child, let's call this child John, born in 1399. Then Henry of Bolingbroke comes in and demands his Duchy, ending in the death of Richard II of England in 1400. Thus, Edward IV of England rises to the throne, under the regency of the Duke of Lancaster. What now?

No war of the roses. Probably cements the principle of representation in the law of succession. Either Bolingbroke is eventually attainted and killed or he remains the power behind the throne.

I'm actually not sure that Bolingbroke would have the support to depose (force an abdication) of Richard II if Richard II has a son an heir. Part of reason he had support was that he was a viable alternative monarch, which he wouldn't be with Richard II having a son. At least it might of been at a later date, or not.

Kynan said:

That is true. So let's say he isn't and, after marrying her in say 1390, they have their first child in 1397 (when she is 15, thus old enough to have a healthy child), probably named Edward. They maybe get a second child, let's call this child John, born in 1399. Then Henry of Bolingbroke comes in and demands his Duchy, ending in the death of Richard II of England in 1400. Thus, Edward IV of England rises to the throne, under the regency of the Duke of Lancaster. What now?

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Considering Yolande's skill in politics,would there still be a power vacuum when Bolingbroke lands in England while Richard's still in Ireland?

darthfanta said:

Considering Yolande's skill in politics,would there still be a power vacuum when Bolingbroke lands in England while Richard's still in Ireland?

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She's a teenaged girl, she isn't going to be allowed to do much of anything, so I'd imagine that Richard still goes, though Henry of Bolingbroke just takes a position as a king in all but name until the eldest son grows up. She'd most likely play a role in the regency, but England during this time is not going to let her take the leading role. I can see her pushing to gain prestige within the English social hierarchy through marriage, maybe to the eldest son of the new Duke of Lancaster. Whatever she does, she'll be a lot more powerful later in her son's reign, probably acting as a particularly strong adviser. If she does marry, we can expect the children to have strong places within their brother's court and, if she does marry Henry of Lancaster, then she is the mother to the two most powerful young men in England, once her father-in-law and husband die.

Will Bolingbrooke remain happy with being just the "lord Protector" of the boy king?

jefferypendragon said:

No war of the roses. Probably cements the principle of representation in the law of succession. Either Bolingbroke is eventually attainted and killed or he remains the power behind the throne.

I'm actually not sure that Bolingbroke would have the support to depose (force an abdication) of Richard II if Richard II has a son an heir. Part of reason he had support was that he was a viable alternative monarch, which he wouldn't be with Richard II having a son. At least it might of been at a later date, or not.

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Bolingbroke might still invade to attempt to regain his duchy, but I can't see him attempting to depose Richard. Henry would be well aware of what happened with Mortimer and Edward III. Would Bolingbroke risk ending up like Mortimer down the line or would he stick to attempting to regain his duchy?

So lets say Bolingbroke settles for the Duchy or never invades. What would Richard's continued reign look like? Would England attempt to claim the Aragonese throne down the line? Would Yolande be able to play a similar role in England that she played in France or would her influence be lessened due to the English xenophobia?

Kurt_Steiner said:

Will Bolingbrooke remain happy with being just the "lord Protector" of the boy king?

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He'd have to be. If the boy-King dies "mysteriously" Bolingbroke would be blamed for his death. He couldn't depose the young King without a legitimate reason, so no pulling a Richard III. There would be no maternal relatives to focus hatred on, like the Woodvilles and Edward V.

Bearing in mind the fate of the Lords Appellant, future doesn't look to bright for Bolingbroke. Richard wasn't know for his forgiveness.

Kurt_Steiner said:

Bearing in mind the fate of the Lords Appellant, future doesn't look to bright for Bolingbroke. Richard wasn't know for his forgiveness.

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True. But how long could his "tyranny" last for? With or without Bolingbroke a rebellion was bound to crop up against Richard sooner or later if he kept on governing like he did in 1397-99. So could Yolande act as a moderating influence in her husband after she gives him children?

Looking at it, I do not see any scenario where Bolingbroke doesn't invade. I can't see Richard II just giving his lands back or compromising, Bolingbroke was a traitor. But, he might lose if Richard II had an heir apparent; if he succeeded, I think his best bet at long term survival would be marrying Yolande, and trying to raise up Richard's son as a king not a puppet and treating him as a son.

Richard II seems to have been a decent king if he had won against bolingbroke I see his continued reign being mostly smooth and him remembered rather fondly in history. Well except the rest of the Lord Appellants they would of been killed off. But with no bolingbroke nobody really stood in his way, or rivaled him in power. Later Henry of Monmouth might of even been partially restored to his patrimony.

jefferypendragon said:

Looking at it, I do not see any scenario where Bolingbroke doesn't invade. I can't see Richard II just giving his lands back or compromising, Bolingbroke was a traitor. But, he might lose if Richard II had an heir apparent; if he succeeded, I think his best bet at long term survival would be marrying Yolande, and trying to raise up Richard's son as a king not a puppet and treating him as a son.

Richard II seems to have been a decent king if he had won against bolingbroke I see his continued reign being mostly smooth and him remembered rather fondly in history. Well except the rest of the Lord Appellants they would of been killed off. But with no bolingbroke nobody really stood in his way, or rivaled him in power. Later Henry of Monmouth might of even been partially restored to his patrimony.

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I think if Bolingbroke invades he'll probably lose, but it would be pretty close. Maybe Yolande could manage to rally her husbands supporters if Richard is still in Ireland. Or maybe Richard crosses back to England with his army (he had at least 5,000 men with him in Ireland) and is able to crush Bolingbroke if Yolande and York can hold them off.

As for Monmouth, I agree. I think he'd get some of the Lancastrian inheritance, maybe the Duchy as well, but not as much as Gaunt held.

The real question to me is what Richard II's reign in the 1400s looks like. He wanted a permanent peace with France in the 1390s, but once the Civil war gets underway would he really stay out or would we see a renewed Hundred years' war?

Richard II

Kynan said:

Yolande would most likely not have any children with her husband, who was probably sterile. If this is true, then in 1400, when she's 18, she most likely either just leaves England is marries one of the Lancasterian Princes , or even Henry IV of England if he thinks she's a good investment. If so, then they would probably have a child, who if he is a son, will be a great heir separately from his brothers.

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Was Richard II really sterile? It is possible that he was not even capable of consummating a marriage, for reasons that are unclear.

el t said:

Was Richard II really sterile? It is possible that he was not even capable of consummating a marriage, for reasons that are unclear.

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For the second the bride was too young but the first was childless but likely consummated considering who lasted 12 years and Richard and Anne were both of age at the time of the wedding