Allies reach Berlin first.

[Nekromans]

Okay, saying that D-Day occurs a bit earlier, meaning that the Allies are further on-track and therefore reach Berlin first, what would happen from then on?

[Max Sinister]

The Western Allies would probably demand a bigger share of Germany, and get it too. Stalin can choose: Either he let's a rump GDR survive in, let's say, Pomerania and Silesia, at Poland's expense, or he'll have to send all the Germans to the West. The rest of the Cold War could look similar (except for no Berlin crisis in 1948 and 1953), but with more advantage for the West, and porbably ending earlier.

[Fabilius]

Originally Posted by Max Sinister

The Western Allies would probably demand a bigger share of Germany, and get it too. Stalin can choose: Either he let's a rump GDR survive in, let's say, Pomerania and Silesia, at Poland's expense, or he'll have to send all the Germans to the West. The rest of the Cold War could look similar (except for no Berlin crisis in 1948 and 1953), but with more advantage for the West, and porbably ending earlier.

Why earlier? I mean wasn´t west and east germany´s longings to unify a helping factor?

[Max Sinister]

No matter how much they wanted it, as long as the Soviet Union said no, there'd be no way for it.

And in fact, during the 80s most politicians in Germany had given up the hope for reunification. Of course, that was before Gorby came...

OK, one more change: Since there wouldn't 3 millions of East Germans flee to the west, East Germany would be more populated.

[Wendell]

Why not have East Prussia become the GDR, and affix the FRG border on the Oder-Niesse?

[Max Sinister]

Don't think so, Stalin won't miss the opportunity for a warm water port.

[Wendell]

Originally Posted by Max Sinister

Don't think so, Stalin won't miss the opportunity for a warm water port.

Then annex it to the Soviet Union. In return, Poland gets Lemburg, and Czechoslovakia keeps Ruthenia.

Riga and Klaipėda are not warm water ports?

[Max Sinister]

Not all the year, I think. Better than Leningrad / St Petersburg of course, but still. Have to check it.

[PMN1]

This is from the US official historian taken from Carlo D'Este's Eisenhower..

'The American Armies, the Ninth in particular, could have continued their offensive for some fifty more miles at least to fringe of Berlin. The decsion of the Supreme Allied Commander and nothing else halted the Americans at the Elbe and Mulde [rivers]'.

I've read in numerous places, that Eisenhower wasn't prepared to take the casulties fighting onto Berlin would have created given that the territory had already been given to the SU to administer unless the politicians were prepared to take the responsibility.

However, there was something in Berlin very important to the Soviets, the nuclear reseacrh centre at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute where they found 3 tons of Uranium Oxide which they apparently used to kick start their nuclear weapons programme.

[Wendell]

Originally Posted by PMN1

This is from the US official historian taken from Carlo D'Este's Eisenhower..

'The American Armies, the Ninth in particular, could have continued their offensive for some fifty more miles at least to fringe of Berlin. The decsion of the Supreme Allied Commander and nothing else halted the Americans at the Elbe and Mulde [rivers]'.

I've read in numerous places, that Eisenhower wasn't prepared to take the casulties fighting onto Berlin would have created given that the territory had already been given to the SU to administer unless the politicians were prepared to take the responsibility.

However, there was something in Berlin very important to the Soviets, the nuclear reseacrh centre at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute where they found 3 tons of Uranium Oxide which they apparently used to kick start their nuclear weapons programme.

From what I understood, though this could be incorrect, the order to sit on the Elbe came from the White House.

[Susano]

Originally Posted by Wendell

Then annex it to the Soviet Union. In return, Poland gets Lemburg, and Czechoslovakia keeps Ruthenia.

Might work. The "German SSR", or alternativekly, the "Prussian SSR". Hm...I wonmder what would happen to such a state if/whjen the USSR falls ITTL.

[dittomitto2445]

NO churchill was furious with ike for not going for berlin and roosevlt or whoever was in the office just siad that they will let him make the decisions

[Doeth]

Originally Posted by Max Sinister

No matter how much they wanted it, as long as the Soviet Union said no, there'd be no way for it.

If it came right down to it, the Allies could take Russia, they just lost 4 million men, and are surrounded on 3 sides, and the only side that is open leads to a cold iceberg.

[Wendell]

Originally Posted by dittomitto2445

NO churchill was furious with ike for not going for berlin and roosevlt or whoever was in the office just siad that they will let him make the decisions

So, FDR did have Ike make that foolhardy call entirely on his own?

[Wendell]

Originally Posted by Susano

Might work. The "German SSR", or alternativekly, the "Prussian SSR". Hm...I wonmder what would happen to such a state if/whjen the USSR falls ITTL.

Surely, it would become independent. I doubt that it would seek any sort of direct unification with Germany.

[backstab]

Could the Allies even take Berlin ? The Russians lost a lot of men and equipment. I heard that they wanted to do an airborne assault on Berlin, this would make for another Market Garden

[backstab]

Originally Posted by Doeth

If it came right down to it, the Allies could take Russia, they just lost 4 million men, and are surrounded on 3 sides, and the only side that is open leads to a cold iceberg.

The Russians were stronger than you think. Their army was more experianced (than the US)and still had a huge manpower reserve.

[Susano]

Originally Posted by Wendell

Surely, it would become independent. I doubt that it would seek any sort of direct unification with Germany.

I dunno... I think the USSR would try to form a new "Prussian" identity in the new SSR (thus surely called Prussian SSR), telling the Germans there that they are an own nation, and an own, happy, communist sovjet nation at that. And with the means of mass propaganda and indoctrinisation the USSR had at dispsoal, that might even work for a great percentage...

...however, in the end, that message of "You are not Germans" would come from a surely very much disliked regime. And also, theres of course economic incentive to try to seek unification with Germany. IMO, those both factors would overshadow sovjet indoctrinisation at the end.

However, I still dont think any reunification would happen. IOTL, the German split was, at least in the Western Block, seen as unnatural, and it was clear that if every the enemy block fell down, Germany would be reunited. However, things wouldnt be so clear ITTL, where Germany nominally is united. Attempts to reunite with Prussia could be seen bymany states as resurgent German imperialism. Imagine Germany triying IOTL tor eunite with Austria! People would screm "Anschluss" and act against it! So, I guess the same is here: Germany simply COULD not allow Prussia to join.

Thus, we most likely would have the situation that Prussia would want to reunite with Germany, but Germany rejects, or has to reject. Kinda like with Austria inter-war period. Oh, well, at least that means Germany economy is not wrecked by reunifcation ITTL

[Wendell]

Originally Posted by backstab

Could the Allies even take Berlin ? The Russians lost a lot of men and equipment. I heard that they wanted to do an airborne assault on Berlin, this would make for another Market Garden

The idea is that the Allies get to Berlin first. Despite Stalin's tough talk, he would not give an order to dislodge the allies from an already-conquered Berlin.

[Wendell]

Originally Posted by Susano

I dunno... I think the USSR would try to form a new "Prussian" identity in the new SSR (thus surely called Prussian SSR), telling the Germans there that they are an own nation, and an own, happy, communist sovjet nation at that. And with the means of mass propaganda and indoctrinisation the USSR had at dispsoal, that might even work for a great percentage...

A Cyrillicized German language might be interesting. Surely, this indoctination would be akin to what the Soviets did in Moldova, telling the locals that they were not of their acepted nationality?

...however, in the end, that message of "You are not Germans" would come from a surely very much disliked regime. And also, theres of course economic incentive to try to seek unification with Germany. IMO, those both factors would overshadow sovjet indoctrinisation at the end.

Well, Moldova's disdain for the Russians hasn't gone so well thus far. That said, Prussia is a far different place.
I would contend that Prussia will regermanize itself, but not seek reunification with the Germans. Remember, Prussians won wars; Germans lost them I would expect Prussia to try and become a major industrial and financial economy within Europe, but probably outside of the EU. Also, the tourist sector could grow in importance. Might the Prussians seek to restore their ducal status from centuries before?

However, I still dont think any reunification would happen. IOTL, the German split was, at least in the Western Block, seen as unnatural, and it was clear that if every the enemy block fell down, Germany would be reunited. However, things wouldnt be so clear ITTL, where Germany nominally is united. Attempts to reunite with Prussia could be seen bymany states as resurgent German imperialism. Imagine Germany triying IOTL tor eunite with Austria! People would screm "Anschluss" and act against it! So, I guess the same is here: Germany simply COULD not allow Prussia to join.

Thus, we most likely would have the situation that Prussia would want to reunite with Germany, but Germany rejects, or has to reject. Kinda like with Austria inter-war period. Oh, well, at least that means Germany economy is not wrecked by reunifcation ITTL

On this, we agree.