What if the Nazis successfully develop a jet fighter in 1940? How would the Battle of France change? How about Battle of Britain and the invasion of the Soviet Union?
Nazis get jet fighters earlier
- Thread starter bphillip54
- Start date
Deleted member 1487
I mean how? They had just gotten the fundamental research done for basic jet engine theory. The earliest they could theoretically have gotten an engine in mass production given OTL research was 1943 with the Jumo 004A with the use of scarce resources instead of going the 004B route. It would have been ready about 12-18 month early; 1940 is too early.
Assuming they had a 1940 jet fighter ready it would take time to put into production, probably entering combat in 1941-42 only as an interceptor. IOTL the Germans were extremely concerned about the technology falling into Allied hands so refused to allow any jet aircraft to fly over Britain. It just does bomber interception then, which would be extremely useful and replace any twin engine heavy fighters in that role and be much more survivable until the P-51 spams Germany in 1944.
What if Haile Selassie, the Lion of Judah, had jet fighters earlier (than 1957?)?
Imagine those cowardly Italians, fleeing from the mighty Abyssinian jet fighters!
Trouble is, would it be beneficial to the Germans having Jet fighters that early?
They had them in 1944 but used them not in their intended role but as "bomber/attack aircraft" at the orders of Hitler which negated any advantage they had and defeated the object of having jet fighters in the first place.
For the POD to work you'd need the Luftwaffe to have the final say on the way the aircraft were used and operated. If you can get this to happen then the aircraft can be nothing but beneficial.
Hope this helps
Regards filer.
They had them in 1944 but used them not in their intended role but as "bomber/attack aircraft" at the orders of Hitler which negated any advantage they had and defeated the object of having jet fighters in the first place.
For the POD to work you'd need the Luftwaffe to have the final say on the way the aircraft were used and operated. If you can get this to happen then the aircraft can be nothing but beneficial.
Hope this helps
Regards filer.
in germany start the R&D on Jet engine in 1935 by Hans von Ohain
then 1937 he manage first Test run of Jet engine that burn on Hydrogen gas
next two years von Ohain worked hard to make that engine workable on gasoline with allot failures and burn out engines.
but it take until 27. August 1939 as first aircraft with Jetengine take off He 178.
to make matter worst the Reichsluftfahrtministerium (RLM) show no interest at all for this, they consider Piston engine more effective as this "thing" !
and Göring and Ernst Udet not understand the capability of Jet engine
November 1940 after Ernst Udet commit suicide, his successor Erhard Milch realize what jet-engine has for potential
and Order not von Ohain from Heinkel company, but Anselm Franz from Junkers to build operational Jet engine
in 1941 the first JUMO 004 made first test run, RLM gave New order build the Engine without use of nickel, cobalt, and molybdenum,
next 3 year Junkers work to make the engine workable, also BMW and Heinkel had same problems for there Jet Engines.
finally in 1944 the JUMO 004 worked under RLM regulation for about around 30 minutes flight time...
during that time the Me 262 production was delayed by Hitler order to make the Fighter into a fighter bomber
as in April 1944 the first Me 262 with jet engines were ready things had changes
the Luftwaffe was only a shadow of one's former self, lack of expert pilots and aircraft Fuel (Wehrmacht, SS and Luftwaffe fight over last reserve of fuel)
then 1937 he manage first Test run of Jet engine that burn on Hydrogen gas
next two years von Ohain worked hard to make that engine workable on gasoline with allot failures and burn out engines.
but it take until 27. August 1939 as first aircraft with Jetengine take off He 178.
to make matter worst the Reichsluftfahrtministerium (RLM) show no interest at all for this, they consider Piston engine more effective as this "thing" !
and Göring and Ernst Udet not understand the capability of Jet engine
November 1940 after Ernst Udet commit suicide, his successor Erhard Milch realize what jet-engine has for potential
and Order not von Ohain from Heinkel company, but Anselm Franz from Junkers to build operational Jet engine
in 1941 the first JUMO 004 made first test run, RLM gave New order build the Engine without use of nickel, cobalt, and molybdenum,
next 3 year Junkers work to make the engine workable, also BMW and Heinkel had same problems for there Jet Engines.
finally in 1944 the JUMO 004 worked under RLM regulation for about around 30 minutes flight time...
during that time the Me 262 production was delayed by Hitler order to make the Fighter into a fighter bomber
as in April 1944 the first Me 262 with jet engines were ready things had changes
the Luftwaffe was only a shadow of one's former self, lack of expert pilots and aircraft Fuel (Wehrmacht, SS and Luftwaffe fight over last reserve of fuel)
Faeelin
Banned
Naw. Blackslivesmatterprotestors give the Ethiopians ak47s. And oh god that book had them come from 2014.
Last edited:
marathag
Banned
As the Soviet RD-10,with all the alloys, thrust increased to 100-400 pounds depending on submodel, life increased to 200 hours, but still flamed out and had bad throttle response.
There's a reason those RR Nene and Derwent turbojets were desired by the USSR
Thats the best to be expected from that design family
Faeelin
Banned
"Why are you working for them anyway?"
"Because this is a sequel to Faeelin's last work, Drones of the North."
Tyr's Rules of history:
1: Nothing happens in a vacuum.
2: Everything happens for a reason.
So. 1: Why do they suddenly decide to invest so much into jet technology? What happened to make this occur? From where do they take away resources?
2: There's no way this could be secret. The allies would know. It just so happens the British have the inventor of the jet engine on staff. IOTL they gave him minimal resources so they could concentrate on more immediately practical applications. If they see the Germans are really onto something? They won't be far behind.
1: Nothing happens in a vacuum.
2: Everything happens for a reason.
So. 1: Why do they suddenly decide to invest so much into jet technology? What happened to make this occur? From where do they take away resources?
2: There's no way this could be secret. The allies would know. It just so happens the British have the inventor of the jet engine on staff. IOTL they gave him minimal resources so they could concentrate on more immediately practical applications. If they see the Germans are really onto something? They won't be far behind.
Riain
Banned
There were a bunch of reasons why the Me262 turned out when and the way it did, not all of them are big momentous decisions that can be reversed by Hitler's mood or whatever. Perhaps a collection of small decision go the other way and German jets are ready to go earlier, they will not be ready to go in 1940, but perhaps in 1943 and given their earlier start the engines will have somewhat better quality and use of strategic materials.
Gathering these assumptions together the impact of German Jets will still be minor because IOTL the best effort they made were 58 sorties in a day as fighter bombers and 55 as fighters, despite hundreds being delivered to the Luftwaffe. Even with better engines and an accelerated, earlier learning curve it is difficult to see the jet force cracking 300 sorties per day in 1944 compared to the WAllies 2500 per day. What's more if the jets did start to become a problem there are options open to the WAllies such as turning their air forces onto the jets like they did a little bit IOTL and deploying the B29 to Europe.
That said it would be cool to see jet vs jet combat in WW2.
Gathering these assumptions together the impact of German Jets will still be minor because IOTL the best effort they made were 58 sorties in a day as fighter bombers and 55 as fighters, despite hundreds being delivered to the Luftwaffe. Even with better engines and an accelerated, earlier learning curve it is difficult to see the jet force cracking 300 sorties per day in 1944 compared to the WAllies 2500 per day. What's more if the jets did start to become a problem there are options open to the WAllies such as turning their air forces onto the jets like they did a little bit IOTL and deploying the B29 to Europe.
That said it would be cool to see jet vs jet combat in WW2.
So, a lot would have to happen to make this work. Using the Me 262 for example, that fighter went on the drawing board in 1939, three years after the first test. In order to get the Me 262 faster, designers would have had to have been spot on about their engine designs; IOTL, they were plagued with issues, from aerodynamics to high temperatures. Additionally, Nazi leadership would have to not defund the project in 1940 in favor of more conventional options. Lastly, Hitler would have had to stay out of micromanaging the vision of the Me 262, he had this shortsighted idea of using it as a fighter bomber rather than an air superiority fighter. If all these things happened, we might have seen the 262 operational by 1941, but that's pushing it. I'm back by the way, hi everyone...
More fun for whom?
I think the thread would be more fun if we gave the jets, along with nuclear weapons, to the Irish Republic.
I think the thread would be more fun if we gave the jets, along with nuclear weapons, to the Irish Republic.
Due to a mixup all the jets are actually bees. The military-industrial-honey complex is upon us!
Ryan
Donor
one thing I've noticed on AH.com is that all the WI's (or at least the ones which don't die on the first page) seem to be about things that will help the axis or central powers.
Deleted member 1487
Right, because helping the Allies then mostly just means roughly OTL, but faster, unless there is something that realistically happens that gives the Allies a win, but then a significant change from OTL, which is harder to do than just helping the other side win and change history. Also I think a lot of people with atl history like to play strategy games and imagine the differences that technical or operational changes make.
No, I think Britwanks--scenarios that help the UK--are far more common. No matter how improbable, these threads are weeds in the garden of AH.com. If not overwhelming numbers of threads, then in sheer number of overwhelming in number of posts.