Venusian Space Program

In the ASB subforum, I've recently started a timeline (thread here) about a potentially habitable Venus. Setting aside the ASB aspects - which are outside the scope of the post-1900 subforum - I'm interested in people's thoughts about how the space race would have turned out if there was a realistic option of sending a manned mission to Venus.

It seems to me that while getting a manned mission to Venus may be a problem (though it's much closer than Mars) getting off Venus may be more of a problem, given the need to build a (probably) multi-stage rocket to take off from Venus.

So, I'd be interested in people's thoughts on two questions:

Assuming that there's some reason for people to be intensely interested in Venus, and that history as we know it largely proceeds the same until c. 1962 when the first space probe (Mariner 2) shows a Venus that is potentially habitable beneath the clouds, then:

(1) What would the space program look like post-Apollo; and
(2) When would it be realistically possible (if ever) to send a manned mission to Venus that wasn't a one-way trip?
 
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Archibald

Banned
If Venus was proven habitable post-1962 while Mars remain unchanged when compared to OTL (the very negative breakthrough happened after Mariner 4 flyby, July 14, 1965) then there should be a rush to Venus after Apollo.
I think that Apollo may proceed as per OTL until Apollo 11, but there might be a space station along it to learn about long duration flight. I don't think Apollo would be cancelled, perhaps it would just be cut after some missions and the whole manned space effort redirected to Venus - orbital mission first, later a lander.
Incidentally, there was a launch window to Venus opening in November 1973.
Mars would completely fell by the wayside - it is barren and much farther, so what's the point of going there ?
As for lander, the planned Mars Excursion Module was two stage - two stage is enough to reach a low orbit around either Earth or Venus (which are similar is size and thus have similar gravity pull)
 
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Despite the discovery that Venus is more a Hell instead second Earth.
not stop the engineers proposed manned Mission to Venus

First were manned Fly by Missions to Venus or Fly by from or to Mars.
Here the Crew drop Probe in Venus atmosphere and recored the data.

some went step further: Cloud Base
a huge Ballon or airship with Manned Base that fly in Venus Atmosphere
Primary studies from the Soviets, and British Interplanetary Society but also NASA Langley Research Center. has study also concept of Cloudbase for Venus
 
If Venus was proven habitable post-1962 while Mars remain unchanged when compared to OTL (the very negative breakthrough happened after Mariner 4 flyby, July 14, 1965) then there should be a rush to Venus after Apollo.
I think that Apollo may proceed as per OTL until Apollo 11, but there might be a space station along it to learn about long duration flight. I don't think Apollo would be cancelled, perhaps it would just be cut after some missions and the whole manned space effort redirected to Venus - orbital mission first, later a lander.

That makes sense. I can see Apollo 11 and possibly Apollo 12 and even 13 (if the latter doesn't experience the same problems), but at a certain point people would be saying why waste money on stomping around on the Moon when there's this whole other world we're trying to explore?

It also makes sense for the first space station to be earlier. How soon could the U.S. produce a Skylab-equivalent? The Soviets had their own space stations starting in 1971, and possibly they can accelerate those by a year or two - all as part of practice for the real goal: Venus.

Incidentally, there was a launch window to Venus opening in November 1973.
Mars would completely fell by the wayside - it is barren and much farther, so what's the point of going there ?
As for lander, the planned Mars Excursion Module was two stage - two stage is enough to reach a low orbit around either Earth or Venus (which are similar is size and thus have similar gravity pull)

That launch window to Venus is a good one. I'm not sure how often launch windows open to Venus - every year, or perhaps two? (A lot of the early Soviet Venera craft were launched a couple of years apart, but I don't know whether that was because of launch windows or because of the need to build new suitable probes). It fits quite nicely with the first manned fly-by of Venus, although probably too early to get a manned landing. If the Mars Excursion Module can be made to work, and if both its stages were strong enough to reach low orbit, then perhaps a manned mission could follow in another decade or so?

Despite the discovery that Venus is more a Hell instead second Earth.
not stop the engineers proposed manned Mission to Venus

First were manned Fly by Missions to Venus or Fly by from or to Mars.
Here the Crew drop Probe in Venus atmosphere and recored the data.

That does sound like the first step; first work out how to get there and back, and only later worry about how to land and get back to orbit.

Cloud bases are theoretically possible in OTL Venus, but in ATL Venus the atmospheric pressure probably isn't high enough to keep them in position. So that may remain a dreamers' proposal ITTL.
 
That makes sense. I can see Apollo 11 and possibly Apollo 12 and even 13 (if the latter doesn't experience the same problems), but at a certain point people would be saying why waste money on stomping around on the Moon when there's this whole other world we're trying to explore?
To play devil's advocate: because it's close, and if you're flying enough mass to orbit to get to Venus and back (even just orbit), doing a Saturn launch a year or so for lunar missions brings a lot of experience--and with access to lunar resources, you can reduce what you need to haul off Earth.

It also makes sense for the first space station to be earlier. How soon could the U.S. produce a Skylab-equivalent? The Soviets had their own space stations starting in 1971, and possibly they can accelerate those by a year or two - all as part of practice for the real goal: Venus.
Before the fire, there were plans for a "wetlab" Skylab in 1968. The program took about two years to go from approval to flight (though it circulated as plans for stage-based stations since, basically, 1965), so that's a reasonable timeframe.

That launch window to Venus is a good one. I'm not sure how often launch windows open to Venus - every year, or perhaps two?
Minimum-energy trajectory window, per atomic rockets, is every 1.6 years with a transit duration of just under 5 months. Part of why space stations and lunar might still have a role in the program--with a blank check, it's a useful thing to do to keep the flight rate up.

If the Mars Excursion Module can be made to work, and if both its stages were strong enough to reach low orbit, then perhaps a manned mission could follow in another decade or so?
The MEM's two stages were enough to reach low orbit of Mars, which takes about 4.5 km/s. Venus, like Earth, would be about 10 km/s. A MEM couldn't do the job, it'd need to be a two-stage vehicle more like Titan or the like--150 metric tons liftoff mass of all-storable propellants to get 3 tons into LVO. And then you have to land that...definitely start with an orbiting mission, maybe teleoperating rovers on the surface from an orbiting station (gaining the autonomy and adaptability of human-controlled operations without having to land/ascend, at least initially).
 
To play devil's advocate: because it's close, and if you're flying enough mass to orbit to get to Venus and back (even just orbit), doing a Saturn launch a year or so for lunar missions brings a lot of experience--and with access to lunar resources, you can reduce what you need to haul off Earth.

I guess the question is how much each Apollo launch costs, whether what they're using and costing is seen as a "distraction" from the real business of learning how to go to Venus. The arguments in favour of continuing it could certainly be about experience, training astronauts for the "real mission", learning more about successful launches, and so forth. But while the USA at least will in some ways have what amounts to a blank cheque to go to Venus, that doesn't mean that there won't be some people questioning why they're spending their very large budget in such a way.

Realistically, how many lunar resources could they obtain which would make the whole program cheaper? There is water near the poles of the Moon, I believe, but I'm not sure whether the effort of setting up a moon base to harvest such things would on the whole be a viable use of resources.

Before the fire, there were plans for a "wetlab" Skylab in 1968. The program took about two years to go from approval to flight (though it circulated as plans for stage-based stations since, basically, 1965), so that's a reasonable timeframe.

Okay, so *Skylab can happen earlier, which makes sense. Earlier permanent human presence in space, albeit separately by Soviets and Americans.

Minimum-energy trajectory window, per atomic rockets, is every 1.6 years with a transit duration of just under 5 months. Part of why space stations and lunar might still have a role in the program--with a blank check, it's a useful thing to do to keep the flight rate up.

Thanks; that's useful information. The space stations would certainly have part of the process - get people acclimatised to long times in space, if nothing else - and they may also be assembly points for the products of multiple launches needed to be brought together into a good Venus spacecraft. I imagine that modular assembly may be needed over multiple launches to bring up fuel, consumables etc for a necessary large mission to set up a semi-permanent station around Venus.

The MEM's two stages were enough to reach low orbit of Mars, which takes about 4.5 km/s. Venus, like Earth, would be about 10 km/s. A MEM couldn't do the job, it'd need to be a two-stage vehicle more like Titan or the like--150 metric tons liftoff mass of all-storable propellants to get 3 tons into LVO. And then you have to land that...definitely start with an orbiting mission, maybe teleoperating rovers on the surface from an orbiting station (gaining the autonomy and adaptability of human-controlled operations without having to land/ascend, at least initially).

How good was the teleoperation technology during the 1970s in OTL? (Not something I'm familiar with.) If it was feasible, then that would certainly be a good start - several one-way trips for the rovers, with the astronauts in permanent (or near-permanent) deployment above Venus until they can work out how to get down and then back up again. Possibly with some sort of location for a permanent Venus base (once identified) to extract the propellants from local sources, if that's possible.

On another note, does anyone know how realistic is it for the Soviets to (eventually) get their N1 rocket or equivalent working, so that they can manage to get larger payloads into and beyond low Earth orbit? There won't be any changes to the timing of the death of Sergei Korolev (if that makes a difference), but the program will probably be better funded than it was in OTL, if that makes a difference.
 
I guess the question is how much each Apollo launch costs, whether what they're using and costing is seen as a "distraction" from the real business of learning how to go to Venus.
Once development is factored out, the cost of a single additional Apollo mission was about $375 million in 1969 dollars. If that's a large enough cost to count as a "distraction" is sort of up in the air when a Venus mission--even an orbital one--isn't really possible for at least five or six years is...more a question of politics and public reaction.

Realistically, how many lunar resources could they obtain which would make the whole program cheaper? There is water near the poles of the Moon, I believe, but I'm not sure whether the effort of setting up a moon base to harvest such things would on the whole be a viable use of resources.
Water's a biggie. Propellant accounts for the vast majority of a launch to Earth escape, mass-wise, and reaching Earth orbit from the moon takes far less delta-v than reaching earth orbit from Earth. It might not be considered "worth it" for a short series of flags-and-footprints missions, but for an extended effort, extracting propellant at the moon makes a lot of sense.

How good was the teleoperation technology during the 1970s in OTL? (Not something I'm familiar with.)
Pretty good. The Soviets drove lunakhods from Earth on a 2.5 second round trip delay, and remotely piloted submarines were in use for a variety of tasks in the 70s, too.

On another note, does anyone know how realistic is it for the Soviets to (eventually) get their N1 rocket or equivalent working, so that they can manage to get larger payloads into and beyond low Earth orbit? There won't be any changes to the timing of the death of Sergei Korolev (if that makes a difference), but the program will probably be better funded than it was in OTL, if that makes a difference.
Fairly realistic. The N-1F variant being prepared for the fifth launch in late 1975 probably had at least a 50/50 shot at making orbit successfully, so it's possible with better funding the Soviets could have had a working heavy lifter by the mid-to-late-70s.
 
Water's a biggie. Propellant accounts for the vast majority of a launch to Earth escape, mass-wise, and reaching Earth orbit from the moon takes far less delta-v than reaching earth orbit from Earth. It might not be considered "worth it" for a short series of flags-and-footprints missions, but for an extended effort, extracting propellant at the moon makes a lot of sense.
Except water wasn't detected on the moon until the '70s, and significant deposits weren't located with any real confidence until the '90s (if you count Lunar Prospector; else you have to wait more than a decade). Now, obviously a continued space exploration timeline might speed that up some, but on the other hand you still have to set up the extraction process, and permanently supply whatever extraction base you have on the moon.

Much simpler (assuming you want to assemble or at least refuel your rocket in orbit, rather than just biting the bullet and building your giant, expensive rocket on earth) to use your space station; yes it requires you to send things up on rockets, but you have to do that regularly anyway to resupply the station, and you can ship your fuel at the same time. No need to waste time with the moon except for experience.
 
True, water wasnt discovered until latish, but theres LOTS of oxygen on the moon. And oxygen is 8/9s of the mass of hydrolox if burned completely.
 
The MEM's two stages were enough to reach low orbit of Mars, which takes about 4.5 km/s. Venus, like Earth, would be about 10 km/s. A MEM couldn't do the job, it'd need to be a two-stage vehicle more like Titan or the like--150 metric tons liftoff mass of all-storable propellants to get 3 tons into LVO. And then you have to land that...definitely start with an orbiting mission, maybe teleoperating rovers on the surface from an orbiting station (gaining the autonomy and adaptability of human-controlled operations without having to land/ascend, at least initially).

Maybe the MUSTARD concept becomes more than just a concept? It wouldn't get much into orbit, but if you only want to return a few humans and some samples, it would do the job at a 2 metric ton payload to LEO. The triamese concept also called for hydrolox, which would be easier to source in situ than kerolox. An additional advantage would be the identical three stages.
 
Maybe the MUSTARD concept becomes more than just a concept? It wouldn't get much into orbit, but if you only want to return a few humans and some samples, it would do the job at a 2 metric ton payload to LEO. The triamese concept also called for hydrolox, which would be easier to source in situ than kerolox. An additional advantage would be the identical three stages.
There's the issue of landing them--they either would need to land as a unit or you also need to land the infrastructure for re-stacking them on Venus. It's really just a less-optimal TSTO vehicle if you're not reusing it.

Hydrolox probably is a good ISRU propellant--if you have access to copious liquid water, then you just have to electrolyze it, chill, and compress. I'd just plan on doing a two or three stage, more traditional serial staged design.
 
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As I said at the parent thread, I am enthused and subscribed! And one reason for this is that I tried to spark interest in just such a WI when I was very new to the site. I am very keenly interested in the ATL question of just what this does to the space programs of the various nations.

As far as basic mechanics go, as others have already pointed out, reaching Venus is in fact within capacity of a Saturn V! And OTL Apollo Applications included a proposal, indeed a set of various proposals, for flyby missions (that would not attempt to achieve orbit around any of their proposed target planets) for a manned Apollo derived spacecraft. Essentially the idea is to replace the mass of the LM with a habitat extension for the Command Module, and use essentially unmodified CSM.

These missions considered simple flights to Venus, and also very complex missions that would take many years, flying by both Venus and Mars before returning to Earth. Although it only takes less than half a year to get to Venus, to then return to Earth on the same trajectory (factoring in how it could be changed passing by Venus) takes a lot longer, and bouncing around all three planets would take several years. The question of whether three astronauts in a tin can would go berserk cooped up like that rivals the question of how much radiation damage they'd pick up on the way to cast doubt on the feasibility of such voyages of course!

A translunar trajectory of the type Apollo actually used very nearly achieves escape velocity from Earth as it is. To go to Venus on a minimum energy Hohmann trajectory requires additional velocity, against Earth's orbital motion, to send it down to encounter Venus where it will have perihelion orbital speed in excess of Venus's. But the additional velocity change above a typical TLI required from a low Earth parking orbit is remarkably small as i recall, and compared to the 45+ tons the Saturn V third stage could throw at the Moon, some 30 or more are available for a simple Venus mission.

Now unfortunately part of the plan, for the safety of the astronauts, was to provide an abort mode whereby the CSM would dock with the habitation module, as Apollo Lunar missions had it dock with the LM, and then fire the third stage--this allowed the CSM the option of escaping a misfiring stage and braking hard immediately to return the crew to Earth. I don't know if the entire fuel supply needed in the Service Module for a Lunar mission would be needed for an abort of this kind--if so, there isn't any mass left over for the habitation!:eek: And if there is no abort, the huge mass of propellant is mostly useless for the rest of the mission. Some midcourse corrections would be needed but basically once launched on a flyby trajectory, the craft will return to Earth of its own accord under the guidance of Sir Newton. So the less propellant reserved for this abort, the better; every ton freed up is a ton toward the actual mission.

The point being, sending a man or three to land on Venus is already an option once the Saturn V proves itself. Returning them to Earth is of course an entirely different question!
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Given this, what would a reasonable development of the US, Soviet and other space programs be, once Venus is known to be habitable?

Well, as I concluded my first post at the parent thread--even if it is known that Venus's atmosphere is breathable, and temperatures at suitable landing sites are within the range human beings are prepared to bear--what about biological threats? If Venus has a 10+ percent oxygen atmosphere, that very strongly suggests life exists there. Is this life essentially similar to Terran life? Even if it is, there is a good chance it is basically poisonous to us--that evolution, having randomly branched in different, equally plausible, directions, over billions of years has accumulated a suite of biochemical interactions fundamentally similar to ours, yet different enough that contact between them results in mutual poisoning. This would be the way to bet in advance of detailed knowledge--that Venus may be alive, but for humans to live there would require as much infrastructure and protection from an actively toxic environment as if we were to try to live on the airless Moon. Advantages over the Moon (lots of water, plenty of biomass at hand for us to burn up and convert to sterile ash for our own greenhouses, protection from radiation, moderate temperatures and a heat sink for active cooling, etc) would be offset by the pervasive and penetrating nature of Venusian biological "poison." Colonization of Venus would imply massive eradication of the existing ecosystem and if reserves are left in place, they and imported Terran life would mutually poison one another.

But suppose it doesn't turn out to be that way--suppose that on the whole Venus organisms and Terran can interact with each other without immediately poisoning each other. There still might be quite a bit of nastiness, such as allergies, but suppose these turn out to be manageable too. So that a hearty Terran explorer can indeed open their faceplate, take off their pressure suit, don skimpy tropical exploration clothing, and breathe deep the Venerian atmosphere, drink the water--even eat local plants and animals! How exciting!

Unfortunately we still aren't out of the biological woods yet. If we can eat Venerian life forms, they can eat us. Specifically we have the War of the Worlds scenario. A Venerian microorganism, brought home to Earth, might get loose, and wreck many possible kinds of havoc, from nuisance level to the extermination of humanity and God knows how much more of the Terran ecosystem.

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In light of that potential threat, I would propose that, after the era of the Moon race, during which the space programs are much the same as OTL, except for somewhat more concentration of space probe activity on Venus, both the USA and (despite their liabilities of OTL) the Soviet Union will indeed sustain a high level of funding for Venus exploration. At first, despite the technical bare possibility of the Americans already being able to land an Apollo CM with three astronauts on the Moon, both nations will start with probes--probes with a very heavy emphasis on settling essential biological questions.

If Venus life turns out, as one might reasonably guess, to be poisonous, then the prospects for manned exploration are severely impeded. Better than OTL to be sure and I think the effort will be made. If the author rules that this is indeed the case, interesting stories still can be told and will be. But it would be a project comparable in difficulty to exploring Mars of OTL, in some ways easier--in others, much harder.

What if it turns out though that by and large, the ecosystems are broadly compatible? (This might be explained by means of extensive natural panspermia between the two worlds during the past billion years, more or less "synchronizing" basic biochemical options). Such a situation would greatly ease Venus exploration; a craft might well come down with its crew planning to stay for many many years, eating a mix of Terran crops and local food, freed of the need for creating or even filtering breathable air--able to roam the planet stripped naked of all Terran goods if necessary.

But in this Eden lies a serpent--if the crew don't keel over from some common microorganism in just a few days, Venus may be colonizable--but even if they don't contract some dread disease for years after landing, that doesn't prove there isn't some bug that can devastate Earth one way or another lying in wait on the next island. Odds are good, if anything on Venus threatens Terran life, then it will be the human explorers who are the guinea pigs, the canaries in the coal mine who will get sick and perhaps die to give the warning. But just maybe, something that poses a long-term threat, say after it has mutated, can take up residence in humans or the samples, geological or biological, they may wish to return to Earth, and get loose too late to stop it.

Quarantine then seems to be the order of the day. The missions to send human astronauts to investigate Venus can be greatly simplified if there is no provision whatsoever to take them back home. If Venus is explored by volunteers who know that they probably will never be given a chance to come home to Earth, and if they do it will be decades later when sufficient contact assures that there probably isn't a planet-killer bug for them to stumble upon, then the task of simply getting them and the equipment and supplies they need to Venus is much simpler than the job of landing them there along with a spacecraft that can take them back to orbit to another one that can then take them back to Earth.

So--first a decade or so of careful (and very extensive) unmanned probes. Long before the question of sending humans to Venus comes up, the planet will be examined by probes attempting to determine if those human explorers can survive there or not.

I'm guessing the author's answer is, yes they can.

Then--the call for volunteers, to be sent to Venus and expect to spend the rest of their lives there, be it short or long, goes out.

There is also the prospect of some sort of serious international cooperation in the program, not so much out of friendliness but rather its opposite. Venus exploration can provide a treasure trove of useful new information--including knowledge (or samples of Venus organisms) that can be used as weapons. Given ongoing rivalry and suspicion between the US and Soviet blocs, and rising ambitions of nations like the PRC, paradoxically the outcome might be that the two, three or more blocs involved agree to a shared exploration program, or anyway interlinked ones, so that the rival powers have some assurance that what is learned on Venus will be shared among all the powers.

Alternatively, one can imagine a hard-driving competition where separate parties have jealously guarded separate agendas; such a situation would probably drive a harder competition and secure higher budgets--but it would also be threatening, and I think international diplomacy would tend to defuse some of this.

I'm romantically inclined to favor a unified effort nominally under the aegis of the United Nations--there would really be separate American and Soviet programs, and possibly an independent European one and maybe even a Chinese one too, but all except possibly the latter would agree to some openness and cross-bloc crewing, and signatory to a charter that forswears keeping dangerous secrets and favors cooperation.

Realistically such a dream might kill the program--serving as a cartel to suppress the programs since nations cannot hope to secure secret advantages to themselves, or subversive intentions to do so despite the treaty torpedoes the cooperation. I like to think better but I'm a romantic after all.:eek:

And of course the thing might go through phases--born in competition, with reconciliations in thaw periods, followed by renewed rivalry.

Programs of sending people to Venus with no immediate provision of return incur moral obligations on the nations doing it to commit to support their people indefinitely even if no return materializes--therefore they might hesitate to take such a course. But the expense of providing for a round trip combined with the global interest not to risk contaminating Earth could make the one-way option look affordable and proper anyway.

I believe the draw of another planet with life on it, especially one so relatively easy to reach as Venus, will pretty much compel action on someone or other, and if one bloc is going ahead with sending people to Venus, others who might be poorer or more reluctant to make such sacrifices will fear being left behind and follow through themselves. The Venus Race will be a thing, even if international tensions are relaxed.

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Given these considerations, I envision:

1) That the USA will spend a little bit more in the 1960s, sustaining Apollo much as OTL and also adding a few unmanned missions to Venus, including massive probes in the 20-30 ton range launched on Saturn V's.

2) While some of the opposition to spending on Apollo and space launches in general will emerge, some of the parties who OTL backed away from supporting the space program, or anyway were content to see it downsized, will not do so here, because of the looming Venus Race. It will seem more apparent and inevitable to more people that Venus is the next target, and Apollo and its Applications will bend more toward preparation for an eventual (and reasonably soon) manned mission to Venus. Rather--manned/womanned--the first Americans to land on Venus will be prepared for the prospect that something might kill them right off, but if not, they will be living on Venus for decades to come and common sense would suggest they be a married couple, the US Adam and Eve. Therefore the pressure to accept women into the astronaut corps will be there already in the 1960s, or at any rate once early probes confirm that Terran and Venerian life are compatible.

3) The Soviets will take the Moon race more seriously and commit to it more deeply, since they won't want to concede Venus to the capitalists. OTL of course Venus was more a Soviet than Western specialty and their early probes will probably inspire great excitement in Russia, even absent worries about capitalist competition. Therefore they will not see the race to the Moon as merely an optional competition proposed by John Kennedy, but as preparation for the longer term goal of Soviet presence on Venus. I expect they might attempt to scoop the Americans by sending something manned around the Moon first (though not achieving orbit there) and develop the N-1 rocket earlier and more carefully, so that even if they can't beat Americans to the Lunar surface first, they still follow through, perhaps with some delay to make a better lander than the LK (using a two-launch strategy instead of one) and continue to refine the N-1, developing space stations as preparation for assembling a Venus landing mission--all the while sending space probes, including big ones launched on N-1, to Venus of course.

The stronger Soviet space presence will probably not bankrupt the USSR; if it is not on any better course than OTL I suppose it will collapse in 1990, and not sooner despite even heavier Soviet space expenditures. Conceivably Soviet space exploration will shake down to be more efficient and cost no more than OTL despite achieving more.

And it will tend to confirm the Western pro-space lobbies and sustain higher American and possibly European space budgets.

4) The Chinese were talking about their own manned program in the early 70s OTL; perhaps fearing to let the Soviets and capitalists monopolize the planet between them, they will follow through with funding and start developing something long before they committed to it OTL. We can expect them to stay well behind, at least unless and until there is the massive development of industry along the lines of the Deng chairmanship of OTL, which will be delayed at least until the 1980s unless some technocrats hold a coup against Mao (and they get away with it) which might give results by the late 1970s.

5) The drive to Venus in the Western bloc might initially be a wholly American project, but once the first American couple has landed there and survived a year or so, I think the industrialized US allies, in Europe, Japan, and Australia will want "in" and might pony up significant funds in return for a recognized share of the American program, and perhaps reciprocal US adoption of some European and other technology. If the Americans are haughty enough, these parties might resolve to develop their own "people to Venus" program. (It might even be the Europeans who develop the first round-trip program, expecting it to mature a decade or more after the first human landings when it might be safe enough to offer the pioneers a ride home. Surely though the Americans and Soviets will have their own contingency plans along those lines in development).

6) I expect the first human couples to be launched to Venus before 1980; that they'd be Americans on an upgraded Saturn/Apollo suite is a good bet but the Soviets might cut some corners to get the jump on an earlier launch window.

I don't see any point in wasting a launch window on flyby or still more problematic, Venus orbiting, manned missions. The probes will relay their information well enough without any humans in the loop; the half year exposure to radiation involved in simply getting to Venus will be quite enough risk without doubling it or more on a return trajectory.

7) before launching such missions, NASA and probably Soviet space authorities will have contingencies for theoretically returning people from Venus back to Earth, but they will be massively expensive, involving many times the launched mass of simply sending people with a couple year's supplies there. A vehicle to get two people from the surface to low Venus orbit would have to be comparable at least to the Titan II used for Gemini missions. And it couldn't use the hypergolic fuels that rocket used; propellant would have to be produced in situ on Venus, and would probably have to be cryogenic, meaning a mission or three to ship the necessary equipment down to the stranded astronauts. Rockets typically need a lot of ground support; this one would have to be designed to operate with a minimum of that. Upon reaching Venus orbit the crew has accomplished nothing unless another spacecraft, one with habitable space and supplie allowing for a year or so of living, is there waiting for them, with plenty of propellant to achieve the trajectory back to Earth. This could have been gradually shipped up from Venus, in penny packet lots, if the surface to orbit rocket is reusable or Earth sends hundreds of them. Or it could have been shipped from Earth, with the whole fueled return craft being aerobraked to low Venus orbit--that would require a really huge launch from low Earth orbit of course. As would sending a large supply of one-way Venus to Venus orbit rockets, so unless these latter are reusable I'd suppose the return craft was indeed sent fully fueled.

Realistically then NASA and others will have plans for being able to do this, but not actually do it for decades. They might put off developing any return capability in reality until the 1990s, by which time Venus explorers will have been landed for fifteen years or more, and number (assuming later vehicles are much larger than the original Apollo derivatives) in the hundreds. Such a large contingent of Venus pioneers would be much more suitable for operating systems like in situ fuel production plants of course, or serving as launcher crews to send some of their number back home.

Prior to anyone coming back, then, I'd expect communities of American, Soviet, and perhaps even Chinese colonists to exist, and with shipments of equipment sent from Earth, these communities would be raising their own food and even developing the beginnings of industry.

8) More people will go to Venus than ever come back from it. By the 2010s, the human population of Venus might number in the thousands, perhaps in the tens of thousands, and this will include people born there.
 
I wonder if the presence of a habitable Venus might not feed back into SSTO development programs on Earth. A Venus return craft would basically need to be a single-stage-to-orbit, vertical-landing vehicle that doesn't necessarily require a specialized launch pad--otherwise, you need to basically rebuild Cape Canaveral or Baikonur on the surface. With a Venus race looming on the horizon, I think more attention will be paid to Bono's S-IVB SSTO concepts or later craft like DC-X/Y.
 
I'm late to the party, but a few points I haven't seen mentioned yet:

1) Life support is likely to be the biggest problem for any Venus mission - flyby, orbiter, or landing. And bringing back three dead guys in a can is bad PR. We're still figuring out how much we don't know about this when we plan Mars missions.

2) The N1 had a lot of problems that were difficult to solve; it's worth giving Chelomey's UR-700 and UR-900 a look as potential alternatives.

3) it's not clear that by ATL 2015 we would have sent more than probes and a flyby or two. It's a tempting target, but ultimately a PR stunt unless there's a potential juicy ROI to drive exploration.

(Which, there might be. I imagine the pharmaceutical industry would salivate at the prospect of a whole new biosphere to scour for useful compounds.)
 
Thanks for the input, everyone. Unfortunately it would be getting a bit long-winded to reply to everyone in detail, but based on the suggestions so far, I've drafted the following general scenario:

(1) Probable life-bearing Venus is a suitably attractive target for the space race to continue after landing humans on the Moon.

(2) Apollo 11 will still continue on schedule, and probably a couple Apollo missions. After that, the Moon is increasingly seen as a sideshow. (Water exists, but is hard to extract, and setting up a moon base would require all sorts of resources to be shipped to the Moon, when it doesn't require all that much extra launch power from a Saturn V or equivalent to send those resources around Venus.)

(3) The first changes start in the late 1960s, with space stations being launched by both sides to begin to figure out long-term survival in space.

(4) The first few probes to Venus (mostly Soviet) continue more or less on schedule, probably with more variations to try to land on Venus rather than atmospheric studies (which they were in OTL). The USA will reorient its space program after 1965, with Mars known to be a desert, but will probably still try to win the Moon race first as a stepping stone/proving ground, rather than wasting a Saturn V on sending a large probe to Venus. (Smaller probes can be sent, at first.)

(5) Figuring out how to maintain a manned mission to Venus, even just a flyby, is a difficult prospect, particularly figuring out life support. But the will is there, and people will keep trying even if there are some early failures. Some of the OTL concepts such as the proposed manned 1973 flyby will be pushed further, although bugs may well stop them happening on schedule.

(6) The Soviets will keep working on a rival to the Saturn V, be that a modified N1 or some alternative such as a UR-700/900 series.

(7) Due to the serious problems with landing humans on Venus and getting them off again, the early stages of "manned" exploration of Venus will actually be by astronauts or cosmonauts in orbit, steering land-based rovers and the like.

(8) Figuring out how to land on Venus and come back again may lead to a variety of concepts: hydrolox-fuelled multi-stage return vehicles, some good version of an SSTO, etc, but working out the bugs will take a while.

(9) Maaaaybe, if Venus looks survivable enough and if people are determined enough, there might be human landings even in situations where it isn't clear if they can return: permanent human presence on Venus.

(10) Biological contamination is the wildcard, applying in each direction.

(11) The main participants would be the US of A and the Soviet Union, but perhaps the Chinese as a third player, and possibly various other European/Australian/South American countries trying to angle to be part of the USA's space program.
 
Point 1
one idea is that in Venus atmosphere is Life, either Bacteria in wind or even "Sagan Ecology"
were bacteria form food for floating organisms, who are hunted by flying meat eater.
if Soviet or American probe discover in Venus Atmosphere Life (like finding there metabolism products in the Atmosphere from orbit)

Point 2 & 3 & 5
Apollo will happen, but after the Moon what happen next ?
here Venus can become a Target under Nixon. means they need Saturn V not for probes but for Fly by mission and later orbital mission.
fly by mission can launch with one Saturn V, who bring 45 ton to venus for 370 days mission with 3 astronauts
but you need test Prototype craft as a Space station in Earth orbit and how crew manage 370 days in space.

Point 4
You don't need Saturn V for probe, a Titan III E with Centaur stage do that better and Cheaper.

Point 7
under current technology is impossible to land and return human save on Venus Surface.
so Remote controlled Rover or aircraft from orbit or Could base will be first.

Point 8
Venus Atmosphere is mostly made from carbon dioxide
one way you use the carbon dioxide as propellant either by exotic Boron-Hydrogen as fuel
or aspiration the carbon dioxide true a NERVA Reactor and you got nuclear SSTO for Venus.

Point 9
There is a point on Venus were Humans could land for short time: Maxwell Montes, the highest point on the planet's surface.
it's 11 kilometres (6.8 mi) high on top is only about +380 °C or 716 °F
but Maxwell Montes is near North pole of Venus from orbit not so easy to reach from Cloud Base more easier.

Point 10
depends on Biochemical reaction of the Life forms
there some study suggests that there is life in Venus cloud that use carbon monoxide metabolism like Earth life use Oxygen
it likely that Earth bacteria not survive on long term in atmosphere of Venus, like wise the Venus life could not survive in Earth condition too much water, Oxygen and too cold.
of corse if you use nuclear NERVA engine or Toxic Boron-Hydrogen fuel, it could damage the Venus ecosystem.

Point 11
Europa would in race either as Astronaut on US or Soviet mission and Unmanned Probe
Japan show also interest on Venus, also China in coming Future.
 
Point 1
one idea is that in Venus atmosphere is Life, either Bacteria in wind or even "Sagan Ecology"
were bacteria form food for floating organisms, who are hunted by flying meat eater.
if Soviet or American probe discover in Venus Atmosphere Life (like finding there metabolism products in the Atmosphere from orbit)

To clarify, in this post I'm looking for how things could progress if Venus werefound to be habitable. There might be life in Venus's atmosphere, in theory - although we've found no evidence of it to date - but I'm exploring a scenario where Venus holds, or could hold, life similar to Earth's on the surface. I'm trying to figure out how the space race might play out in those circumstances.

Point 2 & 3 & 5
Apollo will happen, but after the Moon what happen next ?
here Venus can become a Target under Nixon. means they need Saturn V not for probes but for Fly by mission and later orbital mission.
fly by mission can launch with one Saturn V, who bring 45 ton to venus for 370 days mission with 3 astronauts
but you need test Prototype craft as a Space station in Earth orbit and how crew manage 370 days in space.

They will certainly need to figure out how to sustain a crew for over an Earth year; lots of experimentation needed with space stations and so forth. To be safe, they would need to do this several times over quite a few years before it is even worth sending a manned fly-by of Venus. Whether they wait this long will probably depend on the balance between need for safety (and avoiding tragic failures) versus the perceived space race to Venus between the Soviets and Americans.

Point 4
You don't need Saturn V for probe, a Titan III E with Centaur stage do that better and Cheaper.

I agree; there had been some suggestions earlier in this thread about using a Saturn V to send a large unmanned probe to Venus, but I think that cheaper probes will work, at least at first.

Point 7
under current technology is impossible to land and return human save on Venus Surface.
so Remote controlled Rover or aircraft from orbit or Could base will be first.

Do you mean impossible to land safely on OTL Venus, or that even in ATL Venus, the challenges of landing and returning are so high as to be unsurmountable with current technology?

Point 8
Venus Atmosphere is mostly made from carbon dioxide
one way you use the carbon dioxide as propellant either by exotic Boron-Hydrogen as fuel
or aspiration the carbon dioxide true a NERVA Reactor and you got nuclear SSTO for Venus.

ATL Venus has a lower percentage of carbon dioxide, although it's certainly possible to extract it from the atmosphere. Whether they would want to create a genuinely nuclear launch vessel; well, there might be some environmental and ethical considerations both from Earth and Venus...
 
Do you mean impossible to land safely on OTL Venus, or that even in ATL Venus, the challenges of landing and returning are so high as to be unsurmountable with current technology?

OTL venus, lander hardware die of overheat, overpressure and corrosive Acid, after 45 to 90 minutes
no way that manned lander or space suit would work save under this condition.

now you look for ATL venus that is cooler ?

one way is that carbon dioxide is trapped in Venus soil and not in the Atmosphere.
why there is so much carbon dioxide in venus Atmosphere, also why is there infinitesimal amount of Nitrogen is still unclear
We don't know completely the Venus geology and vulcanism, if the planet even got a Plate tectonic is a mystery.

i guess with lower Atmosphere pressure of 1 bar instead of the 92 bar (9.2 MPa) of OTL Venus
the Planet would be much cooler
 
now you look for ATL venus that is cooler ?

one way is that carbon dioxide is trapped in Venus soil and not in the Atmosphere.
why there is so much carbon dioxide in venus Atmosphere, also why is there infinitesimal amount of Nitrogen is still unclear
We don't know completely the Venus geology and vulcanism, if the planet even got a Plate tectonic is a mystery.

Venus's atmosphere has more nitrogen than Earth does; it's just that the overwhelming amount of carbon dioxide makes the nitrogen concentration seem small. IIRC, from other atmospheric isotope concentrations (e.g. argon 36/38), it looks like Venus retained more of its primal atmosphere than Earth's, so that could account for the higher amount of nitrogen. Or also, of course, that there's no nitrogen-fixing life on Venus to trap some nitrates in the soil.

Venus's geology is still something of a mystery, but there doesn't appear to be any plate tectonics similar to that of Earth. Which also explains the higher volume of CO2, of course: there's no life activities to trap most of the carbon in the crust as happens on Earth. There is significant speculation that Venus is periodically resurfaced - the whole planet - in overwhelming bursts of volcanism.

i guess with lower Atmosphere pressure of 1 bar instead of the 92 bar (9.2 MPa) of OTL Venus
the Planet would be much cooler

It would be cooler in such a case, although that's more a case of cause being reversed: there needs to be a way to keep the atmospheric temperature lower to stop the atmospheric pressure from building up as CO2 is baked out from the rocks.
 
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