WI: No Christianity
- Thread starter Keperry
- Start date
- Well Sol Invictus State Cult as a semi Monotheistic sun worshipping popular among soldiers and emperors.
- Manichism and Zoroatrianism could lead to some interesting things, too
-Mithraism
- some sort of Rabbinist Hellenic religion (Hellenic Judaism)
- Elagabalism, if emperor Egalabal could successfully implement his personal religion from his Syrian birthplace in the Roman Empire in general (It has even followers in Italy) without violating the Roman-Pantheon- polytheistic- feelings of his fellow Roman citizens.
- Maybe in pre-Islamic Arabia Peninsula a developed woreshipping of the three Goddesses Al´Uzza, Allat and Manat ?
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I think one of these three would prove to be dominant in the long run. Possibly a syncretic blend of all three with enough time.
My bet is placed on Mithraism to WIN.
Manichism & Zoroastrianism to PLACE.
Sol Invictus to SHOW.
My 2 cents.
Joho
See also
Development of Europe without Christianity as public religion? (Multi-page thread 1 2)
Eivind
Nipping Christianity in the bud - how does religion develop?
Emperor-of-New-Zealand
PC: Paganism defeating Christianity in Europe?. (Multi-page thread 1 2 3)
Thinker1200
If no Christianity... (Multi-page thread 1 2)
Delvestius
No Christianity and no Islam
smjb
World without Christianity (Multi-page thread 1 2 3)
Lindseyman
The Consequences of a World Without Christianity? (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4 5 6 7)
Stolengood
Possible reprucussions of no Christianity? (Multi-page thread 1 2 3)
AYC
WI No Christianity? (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4 5 6 7)
Overlord
No Christianity (Multi-page thread 1 2 3)
mojojojo
No Christianity
Evil Opus
Development of Europe without Christianity as public religion? (Multi-page thread 1 2)
Eivind
Nipping Christianity in the bud - how does religion develop?
Emperor-of-New-Zealand
PC: Paganism defeating Christianity in Europe?. (Multi-page thread 1 2 3)
Thinker1200
If no Christianity... (Multi-page thread 1 2)
Delvestius
No Christianity and no Islam
smjb
World without Christianity (Multi-page thread 1 2 3)
Lindseyman
The Consequences of a World Without Christianity? (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4 5 6 7)
Stolengood
Possible reprucussions of no Christianity? (Multi-page thread 1 2 3)
AYC
WI No Christianity? (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4 5 6 7)
Overlord
No Christianity (Multi-page thread 1 2 3)
mojojojo
No Christianity
Evil Opus
Manichaeism depended upon Christianity for it to arise as a religion, if there is no Jesus/Christian religion than there would be no Manichaeism...
For your viewing pleasure, I have dredged up something I wrote on a thread "Greatest religions that never were" a while ago:
This isn't necessarily what I think would happen, although I do think one of the strongest contenders for a successful religion would be a Mithraism that reforms to be more inclusive, for example by allowing women, if Mithras "marries" Isis or Cybele or something like that.
There will definitely still be Jews around, and Sun-worship, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, and Gnosticism all seem like they can make inroads, maybe we might see some new religion emerging (in the Middle East?) combining some or all of them.
What about the Hypsistarians, to the extent that they would exist without Christianity? And could a religion or at least a cult form around Apollonius of Tyana?
This isn't necessarily what I think would happen, although I do think one of the strongest contenders for a successful religion would be a Mithraism that reforms to be more inclusive, for example by allowing women, if Mithras "marries" Isis or Cybele or something like that.
There will definitely still be Jews around, and Sun-worship, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, and Gnosticism all seem like they can make inroads, maybe we might see some new religion emerging (in the Middle East?) combining some or all of them.
What about the Hypsistarians, to the extent that they would exist without Christianity? And could a religion or at least a cult form around Apollonius of Tyana?
The Hypsistarians, it seems, were based out of Hellenized Jews. It seems totally possible that they'd still have a movement, and possibly with the right PoD a bigger one.
The key for any religion that seeks to fill whatever spiritual void exists in the world of the Roman Empire, in my opinion, is that it has to have universal appeal, address social issues of the time, be open to all/marginalized classes, and have some more philosophical level.
Without all of those things, the best you're going to get is fringe cults. Whichever fringe cult manages to solve as many of those factors as possible is going to be the most successful. Without Christianity, the playing field open to all sorts of obscure movements.
I think that things like Zoroastrianism, at least in its orthodox form, are less likely to work that various Hellenic-inspired mystery cults. Some sort of fringe Zoroastrianism could succeed - a la Manichaeism (perhaps more Buddhist and less Christian?) but Zoroastrianism as practiced by the Iranians was too much of an explicitly ethnic faith and without Christianity it might be tough to get it to become anything more than that.
Was Mithras really ever all that popular? I mean, I know among some soldiers, but it seems like it gets a lot of attention in these discussions, but I always thought it had pretty limited mass appeal like most mystery cults. Why do we always pick that one to talk about? I'm curious - is there some element I'm overlooking? Was it actually way bigger than I'm thinking?
The key for any religion that seeks to fill whatever spiritual void exists in the world of the Roman Empire, in my opinion, is that it has to have universal appeal, address social issues of the time, be open to all/marginalized classes, and have some more philosophical level.
Without all of those things, the best you're going to get is fringe cults. Whichever fringe cult manages to solve as many of those factors as possible is going to be the most successful. Without Christianity, the playing field open to all sorts of obscure movements.
I think that things like Zoroastrianism, at least in its orthodox form, are less likely to work that various Hellenic-inspired mystery cults. Some sort of fringe Zoroastrianism could succeed - a la Manichaeism (perhaps more Buddhist and less Christian?) but Zoroastrianism as practiced by the Iranians was too much of an explicitly ethnic faith and without Christianity it might be tough to get it to become anything more than that.
Was Mithras really ever all that popular? I mean, I know among some soldiers, but it seems like it gets a lot of attention in these discussions, but I always thought it had pretty limited mass appeal like most mystery cults. Why do we always pick that one to talk about? I'm curious - is there some element I'm overlooking? Was it actually way bigger than I'm thinking?
The limited appeal is definitely a problem for mystery cults - some like Mithras are only for men or women or a specific class or profession, etc., and then you have ones like the Eleusinian Mysteries that have a wide appeal but are location-specific. This is why I say that the best contender might be a mystery cult that adopts reforms to give it a wider appeal, like the Mithraic Mysteries simplifying their whole process and somehow allowing participation by women, either by letting them in outright or incorporating another figure that women can worship (like I suggested, possibly a popular cult goddess like Isis). And maybe instead of the cult just being for soldiers, every man who joins, regardless of class, is a soldier of Mithras? I'm just using Mithras as an example, it could be another one of them also... and as for why we always talk about Mithraism, I can't speak to its actual level of historical prominence, but it seems to me like one of those things that could just be cool and interesting disproportionately to how important it is.
Picking up a philosophical element along the way shouldn't be difficult, it seems to me, and I do agree that it needs a philosophical element, though at the same time it can't be too philosophical. A lot of the movements around at the time like the Neopythagoreans and Hermetics were probably too esoteric for mainstream appeal, and while Neoplatonism can certainly be incorporated into a religion's philosophy (as it was for Christianity, and as Julian tried to do for the mystery cults) it's not charismatic enough to stand as a religion by itself.
I can definitely see some sort of Gnostic/Zoroastrian dualistic religion with Buddhist elements existing alongside(?) Zoroastrianism and Buddhism and spreading beyond. Buddhism but more theistic and dualistic, maybe, or Zoroastrianism with its ethnic elements pared down in the same way that Christianity did for Judaism.
Picking up a philosophical element along the way shouldn't be difficult, it seems to me, and I do agree that it needs a philosophical element, though at the same time it can't be too philosophical. A lot of the movements around at the time like the Neopythagoreans and Hermetics were probably too esoteric for mainstream appeal, and while Neoplatonism can certainly be incorporated into a religion's philosophy (as it was for Christianity, and as Julian tried to do for the mystery cults) it's not charismatic enough to stand as a religion by itself.
I can definitely see some sort of Gnostic/Zoroastrian dualistic religion with Buddhist elements existing alongside(?) Zoroastrianism and Buddhism and spreading beyond. Buddhism but more theistic and dualistic, maybe, or Zoroastrianism with its ethnic elements pared down in the same way that Christianity did for Judaism.
dissentcontinues
Banned
My money is on average peasant or tribesman keeps their everyday usual folk religion and traditional gods. As Rome falls and its Latin population crashes, this will greatly reduce the Roman pantheon and the Germanic and other barbarian population will absorb the survivors, but things like mystery cults will become bastardized and used as tools of legitimacy by Germanic or Hun warlords trying to take up the mantle of Roman civilization. So business as usual religion wise for the rank and file, be that honoring Roman deities in your household or killing something or someone in a sacred grove for the Volkwanderung folks; garbled and bowdlerized Mitraism, Cult of Cybele, Sol Invictus whatever for the rulers with pet philosophers to appear "learned" and flirting with Zoroastrianism as Persia wins big from the fall of Rome.
I think it would vary by region. Britian and Gaul once conquered would become more Germanic without the Romanizeing influence of the Church. Wodan and co. would hold sway.
Egypt would probably have a re assertion of traditional Egyptian religion. Greece and Rome themselves would be up for grabs and traditional religion would fight it out with various mystery cults and in the end it would probably come down to who ruled. Basically Christianity won because it got the patronage of Constantine and most of his successors. We'd have a simular case here. However I don't think whomever "won" would be as exculsionist as the Christians.There would therefore be several ideologies running around, much like Buddhism, Confuscian, and Taoism influenced China.
Egypt would probably have a re assertion of traditional Egyptian religion. Greece and Rome themselves would be up for grabs and traditional religion would fight it out with various mystery cults and in the end it would probably come down to who ruled. Basically Christianity won because it got the patronage of Constantine and most of his successors. We'd have a simular case here. However I don't think whomever "won" would be as exculsionist as the Christians.There would therefore be several ideologies running around, much like Buddhism, Confuscian, and Taoism influenced China.
An additional PoD that's associated with this one in my mind, though it needn't necessarily be and sort of pushes at the limits of what butterflies will let us get away with, is Rome staying split up after the Crisis of the Third Century, with the Gallic and Palmyrene Empire remaining independent. Aurelian imposes the cult of Sol Invictus on the areas Rome still controls, while the Gallic Empire becomes heavily influenced by (reformed?) Mithraism, and Palmyra gets conquered by Persia and becomes part of that cultural-religious zone, which would have the effect of further exposing Persian, Indian, Greek, and Semitic ideas to each other.
Hmm. I'm curious what a future Sol Invictus religion would look like. It seems that it would be able to conveniently incorporate Mithras as well - but I wonder if it could survive the collapse of the Empire. It seems to have always been tied to/equated with the Emperor.
It seems to be you'd probably end up with a system like Hinduism - loads and loads of gods, with various ones enjoying regional preeminence, similar underlying Hellenic philosophy, and eventually the system refining from there, with certain ideas and gods gaining more or less preeminence as time went on.
Such a system could easily incorporate Platonism and Buddhism and any other philosophy you wanted, if you wanted it to. Germanic gods would merge seamlessly with the same eastern gods and concepts as the Roman gods did. Religion simply wouldn't be as important, and the sense of identity it would provide would be far more regional rather than universal (no "Christendom", merely "Greek god" or "Syrian God")
It seems to be you'd probably end up with a system like Hinduism - loads and loads of gods, with various ones enjoying regional preeminence, similar underlying Hellenic philosophy, and eventually the system refining from there, with certain ideas and gods gaining more or less preeminence as time went on.
Such a system could easily incorporate Platonism and Buddhism and any other philosophy you wanted, if you wanted it to. Germanic gods would merge seamlessly with the same eastern gods and concepts as the Roman gods did. Religion simply wouldn't be as important, and the sense of identity it would provide would be far more regional rather than universal (no "Christendom", merely "Greek god" or "Syrian God")
As I understand, Aurelian's intent in introducing the cult of Sol Invictus was to overcome the problems of region and class associated with other cults by providing a deity that people of all classes all over the empire could worship. Everyone knows and understands the Sun, after all. I think it's possible to have Sol-Invictus-ism persist. For one thing, the Empire could exist in one way or another, if not in its full glory. Maybe if we're using the Crisis of the Third Century secondary PoD I mentioned and it's confined to Italy, the Balkans, Africa, and Anatolia, it'll be more sustainable (not necessarily keeping all that territory). Or else some sort of Byzantine situation... Beyond that, it's quite possible that the religion evolves in some way that the clergy is sufficiently independent enough from the Empire to stand on its own, there could certainly be some political struggle that leads to that sort of separation.
Also as I understand, Hinduism really defined itself and became coherent as something we would recognize as a religion (if a very, very diverse one) in the face of being challenged by the rise of Buddhism. Got a more philosophical basis, chose certain gods as the most important (Vishnu for the Vaishnavites, Shiva for the Shaivites, etc.), and so on. Maybe whatever religion comes from the east could do the same sort of thing for Greco-Roman polytheism.
Whatever happens, it seems like religion will be more open and less exclusive, more like India and China than Europe and the Middle East were in OTL. Even if you identify as belonging to one religious current in particular or treat it as the most important you can still worship your local gods and pull figures and ideas from other religions as you please so long as you don't get too crazy.
Also as I understand, Hinduism really defined itself and became coherent as something we would recognize as a religion (if a very, very diverse one) in the face of being challenged by the rise of Buddhism. Got a more philosophical basis, chose certain gods as the most important (Vishnu for the Vaishnavites, Shiva for the Shaivites, etc.), and so on. Maybe whatever religion comes from the east could do the same sort of thing for Greco-Roman polytheism.
Whatever happens, it seems like religion will be more open and less exclusive, more like India and China than Europe and the Middle East were in OTL. Even if you identify as belonging to one religious current in particular or treat it as the most important you can still worship your local gods and pull figures and ideas from other religions as you please so long as you don't get too crazy.
The philosophical basis of Buddhism also arose out of early Hindu philosophy as well - both challenged each other. And the Bhakti movements of the middle ages primarily picked central gods with which to have a personal relationship in response to the anarchy and decentralization of the post-Gupta period and the rise of Islam.
Defining themselves against Zoroastrianism could work, potentially. But if you're going to do that you can't borrow too much from the Persians probably.
The advantage of the Sol cult, I imagine, is very much that its not monotheistic, even if the sun or something with the attributes of the sun has primacy. One has to wonder how much certain aspects of all the later mystery religions were influenced by a need to compete with Christianity.
Defining themselves against Zoroastrianism could work, potentially. But if you're going to do that you can't borrow too much from the Persians probably.
The advantage of the Sol cult, I imagine, is very much that its not monotheistic, even if the sun or something with the attributes of the sun has primacy. One has to wonder how much certain aspects of all the later mystery religions were influenced by a need to compete with Christianity.
Didn't Hadrian have a cult for his lover at one point that was rather popular? That could be an interesting diversion.
Without Christianity, a lot of the efforts at peace and social justice (limited and halting as they were) might not exist. This could mean a lot more violence and brutality towards people on the lower end of the socio economic scale.
This fact leads one to believe that there would eventually be something for slaves, women, and the rest of the downtrodden to latch onto, maybe Buddhism.
Without Christianity, a lot of the efforts at peace and social justice (limited and halting as they were) might not exist. This could mean a lot more violence and brutality towards people on the lower end of the socio economic scale.
This fact leads one to believe that there would eventually be something for slaves, women, and the rest of the downtrodden to latch onto, maybe Buddhism.
Antinous, yeah. Could definitely be interesting, especially in that it's the cult of a deified human, as opposed to the other cults but like Christianity. In fact, like Jesus he even has a self-sacrifice legend attached to him, that he threw himself into the Nile to restore Hadrian's youth or restore normal floods after years of weirdness (or alternatively he fell in accidentally or was murdered). He was apparently syncretized with Dionysus, who had a mystery of his own, and Hermes and Osiris... and who knows, he could be associated with Mithras or Sol Invictus too. I don't think the Antinous cult has quite what it takes to stand as a religion on its own but it definitely has potential to impact things. And it's be interesting to think of what the impact would be on homosexuality in society...
To throw in another mystery cult, the Eleusianian Mysteries of Demeter and Persephone were very popular and well-known, and open to both men and women and every social class, even slaves. They were based on the goddesses' descent into and return from the underworld and promised eternal life to their followers, sound familiar? But, they were confined Eleusis in Attica, and while there were certainly pilgrims a religion that can only be practiced in one place is definitely limited in how far it can go. Is there any way it could be reformed to allow it to be practiced anywhere, or a new cult be founded based on it that allows that?
To throw in another mystery cult, the Eleusianian Mysteries of Demeter and Persephone were very popular and well-known, and open to both men and women and every social class, even slaves. They were based on the goddesses' descent into and return from the underworld and promised eternal life to their followers, sound familiar? But, they were confined Eleusis in Attica, and while there were certainly pilgrims a religion that can only be practiced in one place is definitely limited in how far it can go. Is there any way it could be reformed to allow it to be practiced anywhere, or a new cult be founded based on it that allows that?