In what direction would Europe have developed if the Roman Empire had not accepted Christianity as its official religion. Is it likely that we still would see the development of a feeling of belonging to a common culture? Since this would also butterfly Islam, I assume that Southern Europe would continue to have closer ties to the areas south of the Mediterranean than to Northern Europe (although this would also be likely in a scenario with a POD that only butterflied Islam, not a Christian Roman Empire). Would one still see the development of several smaller kingdoms fighting each other, marrying each other and so on? Would it mean an earlier or a delayed industrialization or would religion not influence this in any way? If it would delay industrialization, would some other part of the world industrialize first? Is it at all possible to say something about this? Was the world "predestined" to industrialize sooner or later anyway, due to gradual development of technologies)?
Development of Europe without Christianity as public religion?
- Thread starter Eivind
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I agree. When we look at ancient Christian communities beyond European Christiandom, in the Middle East, Africa, India, and beyond, we can see the distinctive character of Europe (or the various parts of it) that goes beyond Christianity and would probably still exist in some form or another. People tend to underestimate the "survivals" of pre-Christian culture that persisted through and were woven into European Christianity.
For example, much like the kami in Japanese Shintoism, we have kobolds in Germany, brownies in Scotland, tomte in Sweden, and domovoi in Russia. In a pagan Europe, these beliefs would almost certainly prevail in a more overt form, and I don't see Buddhism, Manichaeanism, or any other incoming religion eradicating them if Christianity couldn't.
Well, if we assume everything same as normal up until the reign of Tiberius, just Christ never appears or his religion fails to be a thing...
I think that we'd still have a similar shift in the Roman Empire - an East-West split makes sense on paper, given the Empire's size, so we'd have that. And possibly a more 'elevated' role for the Emperors in the East, only with a pagan bent rather than a 'God's Viceroy on Earth'.
I also think that there'd still be a fall of the Western Empire - even if the particular conditions of the barbarian migrations of OTL are butterflied, I don't think the Empire would last forever - there'd probably be some form of migration that would have a similar effect. But rather than different forms of Christianity, we'd probably get some kind of fusion between classical paganism and Germanic beliefs.
However, if we had an alt-Justinian in the Eastern Empire who decided on a reconquest of the West, it'd probably be easier to make stick - the lack of 'heresy' as a concept would mean that assimilating reconquered territory would be easier since there'd be no persecution of Arian heretics. Also, the new Empire would likely last longer, since the lack of Christianity likely means no Islam, and no Islam means no Arab invasions of Byzantium and Persia. In this situation, Europe would look quite different - even if the Empire fell again, its legacy would be much harder to shake.
Also, gladiator fights would probably have remained a thing for longer.
I think that we'd still have a similar shift in the Roman Empire - an East-West split makes sense on paper, given the Empire's size, so we'd have that. And possibly a more 'elevated' role for the Emperors in the East, only with a pagan bent rather than a 'God's Viceroy on Earth'.
I also think that there'd still be a fall of the Western Empire - even if the particular conditions of the barbarian migrations of OTL are butterflied, I don't think the Empire would last forever - there'd probably be some form of migration that would have a similar effect. But rather than different forms of Christianity, we'd probably get some kind of fusion between classical paganism and Germanic beliefs.
However, if we had an alt-Justinian in the Eastern Empire who decided on a reconquest of the West, it'd probably be easier to make stick - the lack of 'heresy' as a concept would mean that assimilating reconquered territory would be easier since there'd be no persecution of Arian heretics. Also, the new Empire would likely last longer, since the lack of Christianity likely means no Islam, and no Islam means no Arab invasions of Byzantium and Persia. In this situation, Europe would look quite different - even if the Empire fell again, its legacy would be much harder to shake.
Also, gladiator fights would probably have remained a thing for longer.
The big thing that interests me and I wish I had the knowledge to develop would be buddhism's westwards spread. It would be quite interesting to see how much of it would be took on board by European cultures to merge with the native faiths.
I'm not so sure on the no christianity->no islam-> no Arab invasions chain.
IOTL we see the Arab invasions did happen. There was clearly something happening in Arabia to push it to this. I have trouble believing it was just a religion that was at fault- and even if it was, why did this religion emerge when and how it did?
I think without Islam the Arab invasions would be a lot less succesful but you can see in the centuries leading up to Islam that the Arabs were developing and growing in strength and that something was going to happen.
And that's without even mentioning the reason for their success- the Byzantine-Persian wars.
I'm not so sure on the no christianity->no islam-> no Arab invasions chain.
IOTL we see the Arab invasions did happen. There was clearly something happening in Arabia to push it to this. I have trouble believing it was just a religion that was at fault- and even if it was, why did this religion emerge when and how it did?
I think without Islam the Arab invasions would be a lot less succesful but you can see in the centuries leading up to Islam that the Arabs were developing and growing in strength and that something was going to happen.
And that's without even mentioning the reason for their success- the Byzantine-Persian wars.
I feel the general (thus far) concencus that a lot would stay the same culturally needs a rethink. Butter flying roman Christianity alone butterfly's Islam and thus massively changes European culture.
The immediate example I was thinking of was 1. the Goguryeo-Sui war and 2. the Japanese invasions of Korea, both cases of which didn't require strong justification.
Flip side, there's none of the reconquest zeal that saw Spain go conquering in the first place. I think things will be terrible either way, probably in somewhat different ways. The fate of the Native Americans really depends on a lot of butterflies, but religion is probably not as big of a factor as time period, relative technology, and the scale of their early interactions.
I'm not sure there were any calls for mercy.All I know was that they were inflicting violence on the native Americans in the name of religion.European rule may in fact be more tolerant of there's no Christianity.
Emperor-of-New-Zealand
Kicked
I don't know, I mean, most of the Pagan peoples (Germanics, Norse, Celts, so on) had no writing system except for their runes. I don't see runes developing into an alphabet.
That'd be my thought too. Pagan religions were tolerant of one another, amd while Rome might not last until the founding of the new world, its ideas of assimilation rather than extermination might hold through.
Also: no Christianity likely means no idea of knightly chivalry. And no concept of the three orders (peasants clergy knights). So more merit-based society from an earlier point?
Emperor-of-New-Zealand
Kicked
I always thought they were more like wards to keep away evil spirits or invite in good ones. Kind of symbols to invoke prayer. A degree of 'magic' involved.
Highly doubt it.A warrior caste would have existed regardless,so would the peasant caste.The trend was already coming towards the end of the empire.The same thing happened over many parts of the world including China and Japan.There would have been a priest caste as well,or perhaps they may be more castes like in China,such as the merchant and scholar caste because in otl the priest caste was nearly interchangeable with the scholar caste in a lot of matters.
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There were a lot. Especially by Jesuits, who sheltered the Native Americans from the worst predations of the encomenderos in their missions. It's one of the reasons for their suppression.
It'd be a bit more different than you believe, though.
Yep. No Christendom means no surviving central organization in Western Europe and no Islam, which itself leads to no unifying enemy to Western Europe, and thus there is no idea of Western Europe as a single thing.
Also, Christianity won the Empire because of its message to the oppressed. Less of that would lead to a somewhat more elitist and esoteric public religion mixed with the usual rituals of the lower classes. A more stratified culture. And perhaps a more martial one, considering the leaders of the Roman Empire (and the Germanic tribes that brought it down) got to the top by being good soldiers and not necessarily good civil servants.
Pagan religions are not necessarily so much tolerant as they are insular. Like China, basically.
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