Italy in the Central powers

What if Italy had sided with the central powers?
I’m sure the central powers would still loose what would Italy’s territorial loses if any be like?

Depends on when they do it. If it happens in 1914 then a few things happen

• Much needed French Divisions need to Be diverted Southwerd, the Close Run thing in the North Becomes even closer, the Germans might take Paris...

If not then...

• The Ottomans stand a good chance of Staying Neutral, as the Goben will not have to run to a friendly port.
• There would be more African Thearters as The British and French invade Libya, (Which they might convince the Ottomans to Join the Allies in exchage for), Eritria, and Somaliland
• Many battles between the Various Mediteranian Fleet.

Beyond that... I have no Idea

I don't know about them losing.

Thats less German troops spent on Austria.

More French and British Troops spent on Italy.

Its also a disturbance of Entente supplies to Russia..... not to mention the problems the Royal Navy may have......

In short, I think Italy on the side of the CP would end up with an earlier negotiated truce.

When do they join? At the beginning or opportunisitically in 1915?

Also Schlieffen had wanted to use some Italian troops to hold off the French in Alsace-Lorraine. Are they agreeing to that (if they enter late this question is irrelevant). This could mean a stronger German Right Wing and a different Marne. I am a great disbeliever that the "Schlieffen Plan" (if there was such a thing) could achieve its end but the Germans could end up with a line on the Marne instead of the Aisne and which includes Amiens and Reims. The race to the sea could go better with Germans in Dunkirk and the Belgians encircled.

All this needs if for some Italian Mountain divisions competent on defense in Alsace Lorraine. It does not require their invasion of southern France to do anything except tie 3 or 4 French divisions.

The outcome for this war is up for grabs.

At the beginning

You have a good many spare austrian divisions too i would think maybe they can crush the serbs?

Codeman said:

You have a good many spare austrian divisions too i would think maybe they can crush the serbs?

Click to expand...

The Serbs were practically crushed as it was.

Austria can put up a much more effective defense against the Russians, though. Also, the Imperial and Royal Navy and the Italian Navy are free to attack the Allies rather than sit in the Adriatic staring at each other.

NomadicSky said:

At the beginning

Click to expand...

OK. Cardorna foolishly makes his main effort in the Alps against the French. This captures let's say 10 sq miles at a horrific cost in casualties. It does tie down 5 French division incl. a lot of elite Alpini Chasseurs. And it causes a massize expenditure of artillery by the French.

Meanwhile Cadorna reluctantly agrees to send 8 divisions to Alsace Lorraine. There is some delays. The result is that while the German offensive starts with the historical strength, the Seventh Army is released in time to take up position on the German right flank as the Battle of the Marne is starting. When the French Sixth Army attacks Kluck's flank their own flank is attacked by the arriving German Seventh Army and is badly hurt. No gap arises between First and Second Armies arise, but a combination of exhaustion and supply problems stalls the German offensive for a few keys. A stalemate forms along the Marne. A modified version of the Race to the Sea ensures where the Germans have kept Amiens. The Germans reach the Channel at Dunkirk and trap the Belgian Army--half of which is evacuated by sea to Britain.

Meanwile the 3rd Italian Front is Albania where Italian troops move north and try to link wup with the Austrians in Montenegro. This campaign goes slowly and eventualy leads to a naval battle with the French (possibly with with some RN help) in the Adriatic. The naval battle is confused in part due to poor Italian Austrian cooperation.

Tom_B said:

When do they join? At the beginning or opportunisitically in 1915?

Also Schlieffen had wanted to use some Italian troops to hold off the French in Alsace-Lorraine. Are they agreeing to that (if they enter late this question is irrelevant). This could mean a stronger German Right Wing and a different Marne. I am a great disbeliever that the "Schlieffen Plan" (if there was such a thing) could achieve its end but the Germans could end up with a line on the Marne instead of the Aisne and which includes Amiens and Reims. The race to the sea could go better with Germans in Dunkirk and the Belgians encircled.

All this needs if for some Italian Mountain divisions competent on defense in Alsace Lorraine. It does not require their invasion of southern France to do anything except tie 3 or 4 French divisions.

The outcome for this war is up for grabs.

Click to expand...

An interesting idea.....

Imajin said:

Austria can put up a much more effective defense against the Russians, though. Also, the Imperial and Royal Navy and the Italian Navy are free to attack the Allies rather than sit in the Adriatic staring at each other.

Click to expand...

Oh goodie, more destruction of CP fleets!

Tom_B said:

OK. Cardorna foolishly makes his main effort in the Alps against the French. This captures let's say 10 sq miles at a horrific cost in casualties. It does tie down 5 French division incl. a lot of elite Alpini Chasseurs. And it causes a massize expenditure of artillery by the French.

Meanwhile Cadorna reluctantly agrees to send 8 divisions to Alsace Lorraine. There is some delays. The result is that while the German offensive starts with the historical strength, the Seventh Army is released in time to take up position on the German right flank as the Battle of the Marne is starting. When the French Sixth Army attacks Kluck's flank their own flank is attacked by the arriving German Seventh Army and is badly hurt. No gap arises between First and Second Armies arise, but a combination of exhaustion and supply problems stalls the German offensive for a few keys. A stalemate forms along the Marne. A modified version of the Race to the Sea ensures where the Germans have kept Amiens. The Germans reach the Channel at Dunkirk and trap the Belgian Army--half of which is evacuated by sea to Britain.

Meanwile the 3rd Italian Front is Albania where Italian troops move north and try to link wup with the Austrians in Montenegro. This campaign goes slowly and eventualy leads to a naval battle with the French (possibly with with some RN help) in the Adriatic. The naval battle is confused in part due to poor Italian Austrian cooperation.

Click to expand...

Interesting scenario, certainly one way it COULD have gone, if not necessarily HAVE to happen.

Wendell said:

The Serbs were practically crushed as it was.

Click to expand...

Only after a year-and-a-half of hard fighting, involving huge numbers of German and Austrian troops. Had the Serbs been taken out quickly (by the end of 1914) that means more CP to other theaters

Glen said:

Oh goodie, more destruction of CP fleets!

Click to expand...

Probably... but still, having more dreadnoughts has to give at least some help to the CP...

Italy joins the Central powers

Italian entry would boost the Central Powers but also have some problems. Provided the French resist the initial assault, which they should still do albeit with heavier losses and probably more land occupied, they will still be a tough nut to crack and will probably be more on the defencive, at least initially.

The Austrians would have more troops after 1915, as their not facing Italian offensives

The two problems for the central powers would be:
a) Possibly the Ottomans join the allies, which would probably be a bigger boost than losing Italy. Forces tied down in the Caucasus, Suez/Palestine and Mesopotamia will be freed up. Will need some forces to operate against the Italian colonies but shouldn't require a lot. Since they have only recently occupied Libya it would be difficult to defend. Also there is no blockage of Russia so it would have much better access to supplies once the allies get their production act together. Also the idea of a Balkan front with an advance on Constantinople could easily draw in a lot of Central Power forces.

b) Italy has serious problems in terms of supplies. Very dependent on imports. Those by sea will largely be cut off and its ports and coastal communications are now very vulnerable. The allies will still have naval superiority in the Med., although it might be more stressed but if the Central Powers try and mix it they are likely to get really hurt. Also given relations between Italy and Austria I can see their fleets having problems operating together. Once the allies are able to establish sea control and a blockage the central powers have to supply Italy's needs as well as their historical ones.

If a) occurs I would expect the allies to still win, unless France falls in the initial attack. [May happen but still unlikely I suspect].

Steve

stevep said:

a) Possibly the Ottomans join the allies

Click to expand...

Why do you think this? IIRC, the Young Turk government was angling for an alliance with Germany well before the outbreak of the war.

Anaxagoras said:

Why do you think this? IIRC, the Young Turk government was angling for an alliance with Germany well before the outbreak of the war.

Click to expand...

There are mixed views on the actual situation with the Ottomans. They had closer links with Germany but historically they also had links with Britain and opinion in the Young Turks was divided. If Italy joins the Central Powers:

a) Goebern will probably stay in the central Med rather than head for Constantinople. This was important both in terms of the impact on Turkish feeling of the 'official' transfer of the ship to Turkey and the fact its attack on the Russians in the Black Sea was the thing that was the final link in bringing the Ottomans into the war.

b) The Balkan wars had been triggered by the Italian invasion of Libya in 1911. If the allies offered to help the Ottomans regain this land it might well have been a useful temptation. Also, once the Ottomans were formally on the allied side and a couple of the ships under construction completed, the ships the RN had taken over could be passed back to the Ottomans.

I'm not saying that they would have joined the allies. However its even less certain than historical that they would have joined the Central powers and they might just have stayed neutral. That would have made a big impact, with most of the gains I mentioned for the allies.

Steve

If Turkey and Italy were both with the Central Powers would not there be major naval headaches for Britain and France in the Med?

Bear in mind that the Ottoman Empire with the allies, and the Ottomans have very recent grudges against Italy and Bulgaris, the western allies can resupply Tsarist Russia almost at will.

In this situation, what would the Greeks do? If they decide to back the Central Powers in this TL, in the hopes of grabbing Ottoman, Serbian or Albanian territory, that could also gum up the works for a Mediterranean supply route to Russia. (I do wonder, though, at the willingness of the Ottomans to ally with the Russians.)

In Africa, things could get interesting; Libya probably falls to the Allies, and we might see the Ethiopians come in on the Allied side in the hopes of regaining a coastline via Italian territory.