The Nazi-Soviet Axis Alliance

[Kaiser James I]

Everyone pretty much knows how the Second World War began. On September 1, 1939, Germany invaded Poland. The Polish army was defeated within weeks of the invasion. From East Prussia and Germany in the north and Silesia and Slovakia in the south, German units, with more than 2,000 tanks and over 1,000 planes, broke through Polish defenses along the border and advanced on Warsaw in a massive encirclement attack. After heavy shelling and bombing, Warsaw surrendered to the Germans on September 28, 1939. Britain and France, standing by their guarantee of Poland's border, had declared war on Germany on September 3, 1939. The Soviet Union invaded eastern Poland on September 17, 1939. The demarcation line for the partition of German- and Soviet-occupied Poland was along the Bug River.
In October 1939, Germany directly annexed those former Polish territories along German's eastern border: West Prussia, Poznan, Upper Silesia, and the former Free City of Danzig. The remainder of German-occupied Poland (including the cities of Warsaw, Krakow, Radom, and Lublin) was organized as the so-called Generalgouvernement (General Government) under a civilian governor general, the Nazi party lawyer Hans Frank.

Most of the action seems to be by Nazi Germany and both Britain and France declared war against that aggressor: Germany.

But Germany was not the only aggressor as history states. Russia had invaded on the 17th and due to her involvement, Poland collapsed and surrendered and was thus partitioned by both Russia and Germany.

Yet, the declaration of war was against Germany alone. Why? Where was the war declaration against both aggressors, Russia as well as Germany?
Did Britain and France think that they couldn't handle the Soviets and the Nazis?

My question is this: what if the Allied Powers had declared war against Russia and Germany together? Could they handle them? And what of Italy and Japan? What side would they join: the Axis or the Allies?

One note: Central Europe had once been called the "Heartland". Whoever controls the Heartland, controls Eurasia, and thus the World Island, and then the World. Could a German-Russian Alliance take over the world?

[Readman]

I doubt it would , ever happen, unless Hitler is dead, possibly even Stalin for good measure. Hitlers' vitriolic hatred of Communism and the Soviets in general was on record in Mein Kampf.

It also wouldn't make a whole lot of sense of GB and France to declare war on the Soviets , they would be over-extended fighting Germany and Italy let alone the coloussus that was the Soviet Bear.

[dittomitto2445]

i had been wondering this same thing during my us history regents a couple of weeks ago. I think the the reason britian and frnace didn't delcare war was because the soviets invade much later than the nazis and they had already declared war.

What would be intersting would be a three sided world war- Germany Japan Italy vs britian and america vs soviet russia

[Kaiser James I]

Originally Posted by dittomitto2445

i had been wondering this same thing during my us history regents a couple of weeks ago. I think the the reason britian and frnace didn't delcare war was because the soviets invade much later than the nazis and they had already declared war.

So why didn't Britain and France declare war on Russia say on the 18th or 19th then? They just allowed Russia to take Eastern Poland!

[Readman]

Yup, in short, Poland Got Screwed.

When you get down to it, Poland Got Doubly Screwed, because even after WW2 the U.S and U.K handed it over to the Soviets. Albeit not much either of them couldve done about it.

[Wendell]

The survival of Molotov-Ribbentrop might be the best thing for Nazi Germany.

That said, it could open a whole new political dynamic.

[Max Sinister]

Hitler suggested the Soviet Union joining the Axis, fighting together (also including Spain and Vichy France), giving Stalin Persia and India in that case. However, Stalin declined. It's still worth a thought as a POD...

[dittomitto2445]

no stalin asked to join the axis and hitler told him no because he knew that he would be at war with him soon.

Why would he ask for an alliance with someone when he has said he will take there land for german living space in mien kampf?

[birdy]

Originally Posted by Kaiser James I

So why didn't Britain and France declare war on Russia say on the 18th or 19th then? They just allowed Russia to take Eastern Poland!

probably cos they knew they couldnt take on germany and SU at same time, hell Germany alone was almost unstoppable in 1940/41.

[MerryPrankster]

Originally Posted by dittomitto2445

no stalin asked to join the axis and hitler told him no because he knew that he would be at war with him soon.

Why would he ask for an alliance with someone when he has said he will take there land for german living space in mien kampf?

Hitler might let Stalin in the Axis in order to further hurt Britain (by forcing them to defend Persia and India) and to get the Soviet armies bogged down far away from where Stalin will need them when Hitler invades.

[Kurt_Steiner]

Originally Posted by Kaiser James I

Yet, the declaration of war was against Germany alone. Why? Where was the war declaration against both aggressors, Russia as well as Germany?

Because the Anglo-French pacts with Poland didn't include a single word about the USSR. They were directed against Germany, not the USSR.

[Quiet_Man]

Originally Posted by Kaiser James I

So why didn't Britain and France declare war on Russia say on the 18th or 19th then? They just allowed Russia to take Eastern Poland!

For Britian I believe it was the spectre of a Soviet invasion of India that held them back. Not sure about France though.

[At-Bari]

Strictly it's realpolitik. The West didn't like Stalin but Hitler was the biggest enemy. They didn't want to fight both at the same time. On the other hand it's not the first time the western powers betrayed Poland.

[Earling]

*Shrugs*

It could possibly last, but its very doubtful. Consider USSR and Communist China for a good demonstration of how such an alliance would probably play out. Thats assuming it doesn't break down into all out war which has to be the most likely outcome.

[Ruthlesstyrant]

Hitler was personally absolutely opposed to the German-Soviet Pact and expressed great relief as he was able to turn to the East in 1941. Besides, the whole race-ideology, one of the pillars of the regime, dictated such a behaviour. And of course, the communism. So it would be very implausible to impossible for a Hitlerite regime to forge a lasting German-Soviet Pact. Saying that this would have meant victory for the totalitarians and thus would be only a logical choice does not count, since Hitler wasn't very logic when it came to long-term planning.

Apart from this, the Allies had no interest in fighting both regimes at once. The Wehrmacht has occupied the whole of France in a couple of weeks, while the Soviets supported them - not a very good idea to declare war against another Great Power (land- and population-wise) while one is still alive and well. After 1941, it was a great opportunity for them because both went at each other's throats and bought them some time.

If you want a Nazi-Soviet Alliance (with Italy, Japan and Spain), then you have to decapacitate the Nazi party and move some people to power who are even more Anti-Western and Anti-Capitalist, and not Anti-Slavic and Anti-Communist (a little footnote: Hitler and his entourage were so appealed by the way Stalin governed Russia, that they jokingly said they could reimpose him as a dictator under German rule).

[MerryPrankster]

Admitting the USSR as an Axis power does not preclude a later German attack on it.

[BGMan]

I expect it wouldn't be too different from the Unification timeline.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/gate...ification.html

[Wendell]

Why are we assuming that the Germans or Soviets are even still standing a decade later?

[luakel]

Wendell, with the two of them fighting together, it's gonna be a tough fight for the Allies.

[dittomitto2445]

i am not sure but didn't the west always see communism as there biggest threat and hitler was a buffer between them and the su?