Russia without Peter I's Europeanization.

Hello, I am interested in the cultural implications of alternate history.
In old Russia, before Peter I (the Great) came to power, the military used to wear such uniforms, a fur hat, knee-high boots, and a kaftan ( high-collared, fur-lined trenchcoat extending down to the knees).




Then Peter came, and forbade the military to wear their traditional clothing, replacing it with European-style barbaric garb. Meaning he made them wear European military uniforms.


But after some time, we can see the renewal of Russian military uniforms, such as in the late 19th century.


Tzar Nicholas II, the last Romanov Tzar of Russia, and his son, wearing traditional Russian military uniforms.



The White army in the Russian civil war.


The Red Army in the Russian civil war.


Soviet Union Army.


Compare that to the modern Russian Army of Putin's era.


So here we see the resurgence of traditional Russian military uniforms, after Peter's Europeanization.

However, I would like to know what would have been with military uniforms as well as with other aspects of Russian society and culture, if Peter's Europeanization had never occurred.

For example, this would be the uniforms for Russian soldiers in the late 1700's or the Napoleonic wars.


Please feel free to share your thoughts.

What about Architecture?

This is the traditional Russian architecture before Peter came to power.









Then Peter showed up and built these monstrosities.


But again, at the end of the 19th century we see Russian revival architecture.






This trend was interrupted by the Communists, who built houses for the proletariat.


In modern Russia, some architects are trying to resurrect the old style, with such constructions as this hotel.

Both military uniform and architecture of pre-Peter Russia showed considerable Western European influences, so it was only a matter of degree when it comes to westernization.

I have no idea but that last one is sexy.

Emperor Constantine III said:

For example, this would be the uniforms for Russian soldiers in the late 1700's or the Napoleonic wars.

Please feel free to share your thoughts.

Click to expand...

Pretty sure thats from Warhammer40k. That double headed eagle looks suspiciously like the imperial Aquila.

Warhammer 40k! Whoot!

But isn't the imperial guard regiment that wears that uniform all male? . (Forgot the name)

rjd1997 said:

Warhammer 40k! Whoot!

But isn't the imperial guard regiment that wears that uniform all male? . (Forgot the name)

Click to expand...

That Russkie regiment was probably from Valhalla.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Valhallan_Ice_Warriors

"Barbaric European uniforms"? "Monstrosities?"

Oh, I can tell that you'll last long on this forum...

rjd1997 said:

Warhammer 40k! Whoot!

But isn't the imperial guard regiment that wears that uniform all male? . (Forgot the name)

Click to expand...

Vostroyan Firstborn.

And yes, they're probably one of the few exclusively male regiments in the Imperial Guard. Every family, without exception, must send the first-born son into the Imperial Guard Vostroyan regiments as penance for not fighting in the Horus Heresy. Hence the name "Firstborn".

But of course seeing how organized 40k canon is rolleyes, there is an alternate interpretation in which every family has to send the first-born child rather than the first-born son. But this interpretation is less "official".

Green Painting said:

Both military uniform and architecture of pre-Peter Russia showed considerable Western European influences, so it was only a matter of degree when it comes to westernization.

Click to expand...

Basically this. Russia never existed in a vaccum.

Peter's immediate predecessors (Fedor and Sofia) looked towards Poland and partly Austria. His father Alexei collaborated with the Dutch.

And of course "traditional Russian" styles are exactly what you'd expect in a continuum of Eastern Europe, Turkish/Balkan, and Persian/Central Asian fashions, arms, and architecture.

I don't see any reason to imagine that Russia would stay stuck in a perpetual 16th c. as time went on even without Peter. There might be a lot less direct copying of German things, but there would likely be interesting new changes anyway.

And of course as a final note, Peter was a reformer in many ways, and in many ways conservative. The parties that opposed him were in some ways conservative, and in some other ways more reformist than Peter.

It's not really clear-cut.

Emperor Constantine III said:

Tzar Nicholas II, the last Romanov Tzar of Russia, and his son, wearing traditional Russian military uniforms.

Click to expand...

The above are not exactly the "traditional Russian military uniforms".
These are some traditional military uniforms of the Russian Empire. The difference is subtle but it's there.

Russian tsars have special relations with the Cossacks; usually Crown Prince being traditionally the formal Commander-in-Chief of the Cossacks.
And to make this connection even tighter the tsar and crown Prince sometimes appeared in public in traditional Cossak uniforms (which borrowed a lot from dresses of the Caucasian mountaineer tribes and looked weird, foreign and exotic to a Russian eye). - that's exactly what we see in these pictures, official military uniforms of the Cossack units of the Russian Imperial Army.

* I know that you are thinking now: "What are you talking about? The Cossacks are Russians!"
Sorry, but that's not that simple, I assure you.

Well as an example you may imagine British monarch and British Crpown Prince dressed in Sepoy military uniforms for propaganda purposes in India. But I would not call these uniforms (with turban and the like) traditional English uniform. I hope you get my point.

p.s. hell of good pictures you got though

I can see why 'traditional' Russian military uniforms and buildings returned after Peter's death- those 'Western' styles were best suited for Mediterranean climes NOT the long, icy winters of the steppes. YIKES! Is it any wonder why Catherine had support from the Imperial Guard when her hapless spouse Peter III attempted to bring back Prussian uniforms? I know there were other reasons but I can't help but think the pragmatism of clothing in that climate was a major factor.

Wait: did you know that Soviet Era, for example, was one of the western times in Soviet history? Most of the official buildings look more like Greek temples than like Russian churches...

Emperor Constantine III said:

Hello, I am interested in the cultural implications of alternate history.
In old Russia, before Peter I (the Great) came to power, the military used to wear such uniforms, a fur hat, knee-high boots, and a kaftan ( high-collared, fur-lined trenchcoat extending down to the knees).

Then Peter came, and forbade the military to wear their traditional clothing, replacing it with European-style barbaric garb. Meaning he made them wear European military uniforms.

Please feel free to share your thoughts.

Click to expand...

The guy standing near his horse (in a fancy red dress) is definitely a Cossak and definitely serving in the imperial army of Russia after Peter the Great.
And dress he is wearing is not Russian traditional kaftan.
That is cherkeska* - part of the traditional male dress of the peoples of the Caucasus
* The Chokha (Georgian: ჩოხა, ტალავარი, chokha, t'alavari; Abkhaz: акәымжәы, akʷymzhʷy; Armenian: չոխա, chokha; Azerbaijani: çuxa; Chechen: чоа; Lezgian: чуха, chukha; Ossetian: цухъхъа, cuqqa).


Here are some examples of traditional male dresses of the peoples of the Caucasus. These are definitely non-Russian.

Azerbaijani from Karabakh in a traditional national dress.


Kabardian in a traditional national dress.




And that is an officer's jacket of L-G Chernomorska Cossack Sotnia (company) of the Russian Imperial Army (1829-1855) -


I hope I helped

p.s. My point here is that what you think to be the revival of the old traditional Russian dress is partly an influence of traditional non-Russian male dresses of the Caucasian peoples onto the uniform of "ethnic" units of the Russian Imperial Army.

Why so much hate for Peter the Great man