TL-191 European Spin-Off? Discussion

So, I've read most of the Southern Victory series now, and tbh, I find myself more fascinated by distant Europe - the going-on there. It just sounds so much more interesting and eventful. Whereas the affairs in North America really only affect two or three nations, the affairs of Europe literally affect the entire world.

Who else here would love to see a TL-191 spin-off series about the history of Europe? If Turtledove were to do such a project, what exactly would it look like - what stories could be told? What events would you like focused on? What format should it take?

Personally, I think it should take the "How Few Remains" format of focusing on historical figures interacting through these events and try to keep OC characters to a minimum. We could follow Churchill on his rise and fall, Lenin or maybe Stalin or Trotsky in the Russian Revolution, Franco in Spain, Michael Collins in Ireland. A particularly ambitious undertaking would be to follow post-war Germany from the starving artist Adolf Hitler's perspective, or the Kingdom of Italy from Mussolini's. Even Albert Einstein and his moral struggle in building an atomic bomb.

In terms of events or histories that I believe could be explored more in depth, definitely:

-the Russian Revolution
-the Irish Civil War and the post-war Republic led by the Easter 1916 leaders
-the Spanish Civil War
-the Churchill-Mosley coalition, the rise and fall.
-the instalment of King Charles XI and the rise of Action Françoise.
-the post-war Ottoman Empire: it's society and it's culture; its renewed suzerainty over Egypt with the Suez Canal would be particularly interesting.

Thoughts? What would anyone else want to see or what shape would you want to see the series take?

Personally, seeing the policies of a dominant German Empire in Europe would be interesting. The situation in Eastern Europe would be fascinating to read about.

From a practical lense though you'd probably have to structure it through the eyes of an English observer (and maybe a German one) in order to sell the actual books.

EnglishCanuck said:

Personally, seeing the policies of a dominant German Empire in Europe would be interesting. The situation in Eastern Europe would be fascinating to read about.

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Well, certainly. Especially how the Great Depression affects the Germans in

EnglishCanuck said:

From a practical lense though you'd probably have to structure it through the eyes of an English observer (and maybe a German one) in order to sell the actual books.

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Really? Why do you think that? I don't see a problem with the HFR biographical format or see anything that would impede sales. Turtledove already has a select fanbase anyway.

Developing identity for the historical characters ITTL would be interesting. Perhaps Collins' musings on the rebirth of the Irish nation and its development, or even the UK and France and their leaders struggling to assert themselves in the face of German dominance, would go a long way towards creating an even more in-depth world.

If anything military is to be taken into account, I want to see Guderian fighting the French and British or Russians, all while struggling to rein in his hot-tempered, anti-Semitic aide-de-camp (you know who I mean ). Or an Irish resistance led by, say, Eoin O'Duffy.

As for the Ottoman Empire, considering HT's love of Jewish characters, how about something that takes place in the Jewish settlements in Palestine? There wasn't much detail given other than the fact that the Ottomans did tolerate their presence, but were discriminatory, though not outright genocidal like on the Armenians.

HongCanucker said:

Developing identity for the historical characters ITTL would be interesting. Perhaps Collins' musings on the rebirth of the Irish nation and its development, or even the UK and France and their leaders struggling to assert themselves in the face of German dominance, would go a long way towards creating an even more in-depth world.

If anything military is to be taken into account, I want to see Guderian fighting the French and British or Russians, all while struggling to rein in his hot-tempered, anti-Semitic aide-de-camp (you know who I mean ). Or an Irish resistance led by, say, Eoin O'Duffy.

As for the Ottoman Empire, considering HT's love of Jewish characters, how about something that takes place in the Jewish settlements in Palestine? There wasn't much detail given other than the fact that the Ottomans did tolerate their presence, but were discriminatory, though not outright genocidal like on the Armenians.

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Michael Collins definitely. I would love to see a focus on TTL's Irish Republic. I'll admit that it is a bit out of selfishness, being Irish-American myself, I would just love to see how the Easter 1916 leaders implemented their vision.

The Ireland I would have, if I were H.T., is that after the victory, they hold elections in 1918. Tom Clarke, the "Lenin of Easter '16" as I've heard him called was the provisional president and is wanted by the leaders to serve as their official president, but he turns down the offer, feeling himself too old to serve. The torch is then handed down either to Sean MacDermott or to Patrick Pearse. Either way they both run for the office, and I envision Pearse winning through his great oratory skills and command of prose. It's hard to say what exactly Pearse or any of the 1916 leaders would do if they actually commanded the office. Only DeValera lived and he pursued his agrarian vision. My prediction is that Pearse would pursue a policy of modernization and industrialization, at the behest and encouragement of America and in an effort to stave off Britain.

Of course, grand ambitions will have to wait as first there is the Northern problem to contend to. Despite some internal disputes, the provisional government ultimately defines the Republic in the constitution as a secular nation with clear separation of church and states, but it still isn't enough to appease the loyalist protestants. They naturally rebel with their own militias, seizing cities and townships in Ulster, with Catholic militias rising to resist them. The Irish Civil War begins when the Irish Republican Army under the command of General-in-Chief Michael Collins along with the support of Catholic militias lead a campaign to crush them. After two years they win, but sporadic uprisings occur frequently. The last one is finally surmounted in 1926 in Belfast with the aid of the USS Theodore Roosevelt.

08hurley said:

Michael Collins definitely. I would love to see a focus on TTL's Irish Republic. I'll admit that it is a bit out of selfishness, being Irish-American myself, I would just love to see how the Easter 1916 leaders implemented their vision.

The Ireland I would have, if I were H.T., is that after the victory, they hold elections in 1918. Tom Clarke, the "Lenin of Easter '16" as I've heard him called was the provisional president and is wanted by the leaders to serve as their official president, but he turns down the offer, feeling himself too old to serve. The torch is then handed down either to Sean MacDermott or to Patrick Pearse. Either way they both run for the office, and I envision Pearse winning through his great oratory skills and command of prose. It's hard to say what exactly Pearse or any of the 1916 leaders would do if they actually commanded the office. Only DeValera lived and he pursued his agrarian vision. My prediction is that Pearse would pursue a policy of modernization and industrialization, at the behest and encouragement of America and in an effort to stave off Britain.

Of course, grand ambitions will have to wait as first there is the Northern problem to contend to. Despite some internal disputes, the provisional government ultimately defines the Republic in the constitution as a secular nation with clear separation of church and states, but it still isn't enough to appease the loyalist protestants. They naturally rebel with their own militias, seizing cities and townships in Ulster, with Catholic militias rising to resist them. The Irish Civil War begins when the Irish Republican Army under the command of General-in-Chief Michael Collins along with the support of Catholic militias lead a campaign to crush them. After two years they win, but sporadic uprisings occur frequently. The last one is finally surmounted in 1926 in Belfast with the aid of the USS Theodore Roosevelt.

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I thought it was the Remembrance that stopped that last uprising in Ulster.

HongCanucker said:

I thought it was the Remembrance that stopped that last uprising in Ulster.

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I thought it was the Roosevelt and the Remembrance was sunk in the Pacific War?

08hurley said:

I thought it was the Roosevelt and the Remembrance was sunk in the Pacific War?

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The Pacific War was in the 1930s, and although the Remembrance was attacked by the Japanese (which was the casus-belli for the conflict breaking out in the first place), it survived, and only got sunk by the Japanese at Midway during the Second Great War.

Seeing a bit of the Russian Civil War might be interesting too.

Sort of using a German soldier as the viewpoint character, so we see the fall of Verdun, their ultimate victory, joining the fight against the reds and his end desperately fighting against the invading Tsarist in the Second Great War.

Maybe a British POV character could be that British officer Reggie Bartlett encountered at a bar in The American Front.

I have actually wondered just who that Officer was myself and just how well he coped with the fate of the British Empire in this Timeline - "Not very well" would seem to be the most obvious and likely answer.


I do think that if one is going to use the 'Historical Characters Only' POV approach then when it comes a worm's eye view on the British Political Scene the best pair of eyes one could ask for would belong to Winston S. Churchill - not only is he an extremely charismatic and broadly-known personality, but his intimate and extensive involvement with British Politics (I'm not sure there's a Cabinet Position he didn't hold at one point or another, other than Chief Mouser to the Cabinet Office) coupled with his familiarity with North America (his half-American heritage has to be good for some interesting personal drama at the very least) makes it difficult to think of a better one, especially when you throw in his gift for the telling phrase.

I imagine that the long defeat of the British Empire, from that fateful August in 1914 through the loss of Canada and Ireland, into the anguished '20s (I imagine that there would be a hellish degree of Labour unrest during this period), the uneasy thirties (as King Edward VIII ascends the throne and finds his desire to make a pact with Germany clash with his people's lingering hatreds), right through to the beginning of the End that follows his reluctant decision to form a King's Party intended to keep Mosley's bullies on a Tory leash and the bitter end brewed up by a mutual, poisonous hatred between Old Churchill and Young Oswald, with the most probable outcome of Churchill's abject defeat being a defiant refusal of his part to surrender his person along with his office.

I can easily see him being shot while resisting arrest (His last words of course being "NEVER SURRENDER!"), which would conclude the tragedy of the British Empire's self-destruction and abject defeat.

… The more I contemplate Timeline-191 the more I find myself realising just how LUCKY the English-speaking World has been in the course of our own.

Frankly i always found strange the fact that in Europe Italy was just named a couple of time and never adressed again.
She was one of the big guys and is the only great power that has been neutral in both world wars; frankly i expected that she had grown a little at the expense of her neighbours or at least get concession for her neutrality

Tiro said:

I have actually wondered just who that Officer was myself and just how well he coped with the fate of the British Empire in this Timeline - "Not very well" would seem to be the most obvious and likely answer.
.

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Yeah, I think he would be a good transitional character for a European centered Tl-191.

Tiro said:

… The more I contemplate Timeline-191 the more I find myself realising just how LUCKY the English-speaking World has been in the course of our own.

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Don't know who said it on this site, but I've seen it tossed around that Tl-191 is a Brit-screw because of how our world would like a Brit-wank to most people.

Wouldn't it be cool if Turtledove did a "1632" on TL-191? To let other people tackle the series, write about the other countries and such.

08hurley said:

So, I've read most of the Southern Victory series now, and tbh, I find myself more fascinated by distant Europe - the going-on there. It just sounds so much more interesting and eventful. Whereas the affairs in North America really only affect two or three nations, the affairs of Europe literally affect the entire world.

Who else here would love to see a TL-191 spin-off series about the history of Europe? If Turtledove were to do such a project, what exactly would it look like - what stories could be told? What events would you like focused on? What format should it take?

Personally, I think it should take the "How Few Remains" format of focusing on historical figures interacting through these events and try to keep OC characters to a minimum. We could follow Churchill on his rise and fall, Lenin or maybe Stalin or Trotsky in the Russian Revolution, Franco in Spain, Michael Collins in Ireland. A particularly ambitious undertaking would be to follow post-war Germany from the starving artist Adolf Hitler's perspective, or the Kingdom of Italy from Mussolini's. Even Albert Einstein and his moral struggle in building an atomic bomb.

In terms of events or histories that I believe could be explored more in depth, definitely:

-the Russian Revolution
-the Irish Civil War and the post-war Republic led by the Easter 1916 leaders
-the Spanish Civil War
-the Churchill-Mosley coalition, the rise and fall.
-the instalment of King Charles XI and the rise of Action Françoise.
-the post-war Ottoman Empire: it's society and it's culture; its renewed suzerainty over Egypt with the Suez Canal would be particularly interesting.

Thoughts? What would anyone else want to see or what shape would you want to see the series take?

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I've entertained the idea in the past but I don't think the Ottomans would be able to ask Egypt back in TL-191. I think it'd be just Egypt's independence being agreed by treaty - which is more of a loss to Britain anyway, as it means the end of the (illegal) 1914 protectorate and withdrawal of troops even in the case they retain the Suez canal. The panturanists won't mind much with their sights put on Asia.

As for Spain, well, the problem with Spain's history in TL-191 is that it simply doesn't make sense. It's mentioned more than Italy or China, but it is just in a long succession of "MASSIVE DEVIATION!!!1!!1!! - yet somehow ends in the same or a similar place - MASSIVE DEVIATION!!!1!!11 - same place - MASSIVE!!!1!!! - etc".

Tocomocho said:

I've entertained the idea in the past but I don't think the Ottomans would be able to ask Egypt back in TL-191. I think it'd be just Egypt's independence being agreed by treaty - which is more of a loss to Britain anyway, as it means the end of the (illegal) 1914 protectorate and withdrawal of troops even in the case they retain the Suez canal. The panturanists won't mind much with their sights put on Asia.

As for Spain, well, the problem with Spain's history in TL-191 is that it simply doesn't make sense. It's mentioned more than Italy or China, but it is just in a long succession of "MASSIVE DEVIATION!!!1!!1!! - yet somehow ends in the same or a similar place - MASSIVE DEVIATION!!!1!!11 - same place - MASSIVE!!!1!!! - etc".

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Isn't it stated in the book that the Ottomans did get Egypt back? At the very least, they would have a strong influence over them.

Not Henry G. said:

Wouldn't it be cool if Turtledove did a "1632" on TL-191? To let other people tackle the series, write about the other countries and such.

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Yes it would've. It would be great if he permitted it because there would be the opportunity for greater fan interaction and a diversity of ideas - especially if its in developing a country that he doesn't know a lot about.

08hurley said:

Isn't it stated in the book that the Ottomans did get Egypt back? At the very least, they would have a strong influence over them.

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Nope. You might be thinking of the part where interwar Palestine is said to be a sleepy Ottoman province. That can be indicative of the absence of a revanchist British army directly to its south, but that's about it.

Realistically there's no way the Ottomans would have gotten Egypt back, Britain is not about to give up the Suez Canal. At most the Ottoman gains would probably be Kuwait, some territory in the Caucasus, and maybe Cyprus.

Medicus said:

Realistically there's no way the Ottomans would have gotten Egypt back, Britain is not about to give up the Suez Canal. At most the Ottoman gains would probably be Kuwait, some territory in the Caucasus, and maybe Cyprus.

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Fine, but in the Second Great War, they might be able to.