Khawarij caliphate starts after First civil war

nastle

Banned
The climax of the first civil war came in the form of an arbitration
between armies of Ali and Muawiyah.Khawarij later become opposed to this deal and hatched a plan to assassinate both ALi and muaiwyah ( along with amr b a'as who was an ally of muawiyah )

Assuming they kill all 3 and their supporters are in disarray, the khawarij gain on this confusion and discord.Their egalitarian form of leadership ( no privilege status of quraish as espoused by both shia and sunni) appeals to people and they establish a unified caliphate in Hijaz, Egypt shaam and Iraq
 
Well, you had a Kharijit Caliphate IOTL, but it was during the Great Berber Revolt, and was meteoritic.

The main problem is that Kharijits were radicals, and mainly appealed to lower nobility, non-Arabs and recently converted in search for political acknowledgement. Neither Umayyads or Alids supporting nobility had a real interest switching for this, not without diminishing their power, especially if Kharijits continues with their assassination program ("no one is safe" policy is barely appealing).
 

nastle

Banned
Well, you had a Kharijit Caliphate IOTL, but it was during the Great Berber Revolt, and was meteoritic.

The main problem is that Kharijits were radicals, and mainly appealed to lower nobility, non-Arabs and recently converted in search for political acknowledgement. Neither Umayyads or Alids supporting nobility had a real interest switching for this, not without diminishing their power, especially if Kharijits continues with their assassination program ("no one is safe" policy is barely appealing).
Yes very true, although some "nobility " of Iraq esp did tend to join them when it suited their needs
I think the term khawarij in itself isn't as monolithic as much as it later came to be known.Atleast one such uprising against ummayyads one of Abdur rehman b ashath b qays contained many prominent arabs who were kind of the cream of the nobility and religious class of Iraq, others like the berber one you mentioned were distinctly non-arab
 
Yes very true, although some "nobility " of Iraq esp did tend to join them when it suited their needs.
Sure, but I'm under the impression it wasn't unlike the roman nobility and elites abiding by popular factions.
I admit there's fair chances for that kharijit features being adopted by a Caliphate (we both agree, I think that the divisions between Alids and non-Alids in politics and religion weren't that deep before the XIth century, and that you had mutual influence before), but I don't think it would be a Kharijit Caliphate strictly speaking.

I think the term khawarij in itself isn't as monolithic as much as it later came to be known
I'd disagree there : if something kharijism became more diverse after its first failure, with a more soft approach (with Ibadi, for exemple) but still pretty much isolationist. During the Fitna War, kharidjism was pretty much radical and militant.

Abdur rehman b ashath b qays contained many prominent arabs who were kind of the cream of the nobility and religious class of Iraq
From what I gathered, but I admittedly know more about western Arabo-Islamic world, this rebellion was still mainly driven by malawi, furthermore driven by anti-Syrianism (Umayyad elites being largely about Arab dominance) which may have been associated with anti-Umayyad Arabs.
Am I wrong on this?

I wonder if it wouldn't look a bit like how Abassids gets supported by Alids, without forming an Alid or Pre-Sh'ia Caliphate.
 

nastle

Banned
I admit there's fair chances for that kharijit features being adopted by a Caliphate (we both agree, I think that the divisions between Alids and non-Alids in politics and religion weren't that deep before the XIth century, and that you had mutual influence before), but I don't think it would be a Kharijit Caliphate strictly speaking.
Yes I agree with you but by khariji I mean really a non-Quraish caliphate where a individual can rise without having a prominent tribe

I'd disagree there : if something kharijism became more diverse after its first failure, with a more soft approach (with Ibadi, for exemple) but still pretty much isolationist. During the Fitna War, kharidjism was pretty much radical and militant.
Yes in first fitna it was an isolated and mainly Iraqi issue
but I meant over time the term "khariji" was loosely applied by the rulers to any uprising with religious leaning


From what I gathered, but I admittedly know more about western Arabo-Islamic world, this rebellion was still mainly driven by malawi, furthermore driven by anti-Syrianism (Umayyad elites being largely about Arab dominance) which may have been associated with anti-Umayyad Arabs.
Am I wrong on this?
Yes it was driven by fear of Syrian domination and Mawali may have been the foot soldiers here but if you look at the prominent casualties in this battle and their biographies they were the prominent jurists /scholars and some important tribal nobles

The uprising of Mukhtar b abi ubayda although ALid was mainly mawali and got very little support from Arab Alids as Mukhtars agenda seem to be more social and economic which was a threat to all Arabs whether Alid or not.

I wonder if it wouldn't look a bit like how Abassids gets supported by Alids, without forming an Alid or Pre-Sh'ia Caliphate.
In a way yes but Abbassids saw themselves as an heir to the Prophet and the pious caliphs and continued the dynastic succession and strictly within the tribe of Quraish
 
So I'm mildly excited, because this is the first Khawarij thread I have seen on the site since I joined.

Now one thing that would be effective is to outline who the Khawarij (of the first Fitnah) were and what did they believe in matters of Fiqh and Aqeedah. First of all, most of the men/women who were among this group considered the term Khawarij to be derogatory and preferred the term (as modern Ibadhi call them) Shurha, meaning the buyers. Which in context means the ones who sold the Dunya (earth) for Firdaus (Paradise) and has traded one for the other. So for the rest of my response I will attempt to refer to them as the Shurha.

Now the first tenant of the Shurha was that law and arbitration is for Allah alone, anyone who rules or decides something on his or her own intellect or reason is commiting Kufr Akbar and that person is a Kufr through and through. It's difference with Sunni or Shia versions is the level in which one is a Kufr and how quickly one can be called such. For instance, Shurha did not use the term 'Murtad' for an apostate or one who says the Shahada but whose actions is not of Islam, but instead escalated regardless of the persons Aqeedah to open takfir on that person. For their defense the Shurha pulled this surah as its war call:

Quran 6:57
Say "Indeed, I am on clear evidence from my Lord, and you have denied it. I do not have that which you are impatient. The decision is only for Allah. He relates the truth, and He is the best of the deciders."

This would entail that in a Shurha state or Caliphate, that rule by the prince would be that in which the prince is among the people, in their own words. Thus, ruling would be in many ways closer to a democracy than any other Islamic state until modern times, one in which the ruler is held accountable (more so) to the Shariah and decadence removed at all times, this in fact can be seen in modern times in Oman and the rise of Sultan Qaboos.

With the rule of Allah made as the base of the belief, the Shurha expanded upon this with what Salafi call Biddah. Examples of these are:

1. The Shurha proclaimed that takfir was permissible if one does not follow the Shariah in all manners without clear cut evidence from the entirety of sources, and removed the need for an Ulema to proclaim the Takfir.

2. That the piety of a man decided if he was the Caliph rather than the Caliph having to be among the Ahl ul-Bait or among the Quryaish, this is characterized in how the call of the Shurha during the Zanj rebellion was that an African slave is equal to any Arab if his piety surpasses the Arabs. As well, the decision making process is without the Ulema but decided amongst themselves based on piety.

3. The lack of a need for an Ulema. This is again part of the Shurha and their egalitarianism. It is noted that the Shurha proclaimed that the Ulema and it's entirety was Kufr and that they had disobeyed the Shariah. This lack of an Ulema creates in a way a more free response to religious questions within a society, without being under the control of fatwas from Ulema who might or might not pass it with the greater good involved.

4. The Shurha claimed that rebellion against the Wilayet or the Caliph is permissible in all cases without debate or the fatwa of the Ulema. Basically no wait, just rebel when you see one who does other than what Allah hath willed.

5. Then the practice of Kitman, which is a hallmark of the Shurha movement. Kitman means concealment and is different than that of the Shia Taqqiyyah, but Kitman is more like say camouflage in order to strike out in a short time, whereas as Taqqiyyah is concealment fir the sake of defense of ones faith. Kitman was what facilitated the Shurha revolts, getting close to Wilayet in an area while inciting the populace and in opposition to the Wilayet that you are paying service to.

Therefore a Shurha caliphate after the first Fitnah would practice a significantly modified caliphate from that of the Umayyads and would practice in a way a more effective method of assimilation of conquered people to any other Islamic state, with near constant jihad this state would have enormous growth potential. However the state would most likely prove to be enormously unstable and would likely lead to Wilayet warring amongst each other constantly over the title of the Amir Al-Mu'minin, just as Ali did with Muawiyah. In ways, the Shurha believed the war of the Fitnah was just, because as they say, what better way to decide Allah's wishes than on the field of battle in Jihad against ones enemy?


Now idk what the question exactly was from the poster but this is what I felt like typing lol.
 
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nastle

Banned
Therefore a Shurha caliphate after the first Fitnah would practice a significantly modified caliphate from that of the Umayyads and would practice in a way a more effective method of assimilation of conquered people to any other Islamic state, with near constant jihad this state would have enormous growth potential. However the state would most likely prove to be enormously unstable and would likely lead to Wilayet warring amongst each other constantly over the title of the Amir Al-Mu'minin, just as Ali did with Muawiyah. In ways, the Shurha believed the war of the Fitnah was just, because as they say, what better way to decide Allah's wishes than on the field of battle in Jihad against ones enemy?
I agree with this part for sure
Problem is who will lead it after the first fitna under a khariji banner ?
none of the prominent companions were of the Khariji beliefs and even the khawarij themselves venerated abubakr/umar even though these 2 caliphs came to power based on a principal of quraishi superiority.
 
I agree with this part for sure
Problem is who will lead it after the first fitna under a khariji banner ?
none of the prominent companions were of the Khariji beliefs and even the khawarij themselves venerated abubakr/umar even though these 2 caliphs came to power based on a principal of quraishi superiority.


Abdullah ibn Wahb al-Rasibi perhaps as the leader. Either way it is not needed to have one of the Sahaba especially with their ideology.

The Shurha did not say that it was unlawful to have a Quryaish as ruler, but that the Quryaish was no better than someone else. Therefore the Shurha felt Abu Bakr was the most qualified at the time, but Muawiyah wasn't because he rebelled against the Caliph without proof of Kufr and Ali was considered Kufr because he supposedly ruled and asked arbitration by other than Allah.
 

nastle

Banned
Abdullah ibn Wahb al-Rasibi perhaps as the leader. Either way it is not needed to have one of the Sahaba especially with their ideology.

The Shurha did not say that it was unlawful to have a Quryaish as ruler, but that the Quryaish was no better than someone else. Therefore the Shurha felt Abu Bakr was the most qualified at the time, but Muawiyah wasn't because he rebelled against the Caliph without proof of Kufr and Ali was considered Kufr because he supposedly ruled and asked arbitration by other than Allah.
Was he not killed in Naharawan ? If no Naharawan then yes maybe for a few sections of it but will he get the widespread support ? I don't remember his clan but people of other clans will be hardpressed to support a leader unless he had religious precedence ( major sahabi) or very powerful tribal ( like from Quraish).

Yes but Sahaba give any movement validity, that is why sunnis favor ALi over muawiyah as he had the critical support of more Sahaba but the majority of sahaba stayed neutral

Assume if Sa'd b abiwaqqas is nominated leader by khawarij, he is from banu zuhra his clan is represented in camp of ALi and he is also a neutral in the case against uthman.The Syrian nobles will be more inclined to accept him than ALi whose camp was filled with revolutionaries who opposed ummayyads.Being the former governer of Kufa and conquerer of Iran Sa'd will have some support in camp of ALi as well.

secondly amr b a'as and muawiayh can claim precedence over al-rasibi by rule of Umar by way of "sabiqa" this might be not important to the hardcore khawarij but will be critical to the masses of people on the fence who need a figurehead

I think this most likely going to be successful if there is large scale defections from ranks of ALi and muawiyah
 
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nastle

Banned
It's a shame this thread isn't getting any attention..
I hope people study the individual figures involved at that time in the fitna then its an interesting lively discussion

I tried it on a muslim forum but trouble is the shia and sunni are blinded by their ideological beliefs and don't think of things objectively
 

nastle

Banned
The Shurha did not say that it was unlawful to have a Quryaish as ruler, but that the Quryaish was no better than someone else. Therefore the Shurha felt Abu Bakr was the most qualified at the time, but Muawiyah wasn't because he rebelled against the Caliph without proof of Kufr and Ali was considered Kufr because he supposedly ruled and asked arbitration by other than Allah.
Shura is a creation of Umar, abubakr election was ad hoc and not by Shura, Umar explains that in detail in a hadith.First and only "pious" caliph elected by Shura was uthman.The early muhajireen were the fav candidates for shura.

But yes Abubakr was well respected by almost all sahaba and had impeccable credentials

The Khawarij would have been opposed to muawiyah even before his rebellion, Martin Hinds did a study on the schisms in Iraq and lists many prominent individuals opposed to ummayyads and we see them later in camps of ALi or khawarij.
 
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Was he not killed in Naharawan ?

Yes but Sahaba give any movement validity, that is why sunnis favor ALi over muawiyah as he had the critical support of more Sahaba but the majority of sahaba stayed neutral

Assume if Sa'd b abiwaqqas is nominated leader by khawarij, he is from banu zuhra his clan is represented in camp of ALi and he is also a neutral in the case against uthman.The Syrian nobles will be more inclined to accept him than ALi whose camp was filled with revolutionaries who opposed ummayyads

secondly amr b a'as and muawiayh can claim precedence over al-rasibi by rule of Umar by way of "sabiqa" this might be not important to the hardcore khawarij but will be critical to the masses of people on the fence who need a figurehead

I think this most likely going to be successful if there is large scale defections from ranks of ALi and muawiyah


Yes, Rasibi was killed at Naharawan, but it is possible to avoid the battle altogether, and it might be one of the best bets for them. Historically, the Khawarij gained strength using Kitman to conceal themselves among the population and incite it to rebellion, not in open politics as the Mu'Tazila did. Therefore as you said regarding the Sahaba, there are many ways for the Khawarij to grow and create a Caliphate of its own (not counting short lived ones during the Berber and Zanj revolts). These options would be:

1. Gaining the support of the Sahaba or at least some of them. Even if it is not needed and doesn't really reinforce the ideals of the Shurha, as you say it gives credibility to the movement at least for a short time. This will be useful in fighting off the arguments of Ibn Abbas (the greatest Hafiz according to Sunni Islam) who is known to have stated:

Narrated by Abdullah ibn ‘Abbas

" I have come to you from amongst the companions of the prophet (peace and blessing, etc) the muhajiroon and the ansar and from the son of the uncle of the prophet (SAW), (Ali) who is his son in law. And upon them descended the Quran; they are more knowledgable about it than you and there is not one of them amongst you. I have come to convey to you what they say, and to convey to them what you say."

2. To conceal themselves amongst the people and cause uprisings throughout the Caliphate as they did in North Africa and Iraq. Either ways, with or without the Sahaba, the Shurha must remove the notions of the Ahl al Bayt and other pro-Sahaba/Quryaish sentiments among the Ummah. Once they achieve this then, it is only a matter of a victory in battle.
 
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Shura is a creation of Umar, abubakr election was ad hoc and not by Shura, Umar explains that in detail in a hadith.First and only "pious" caliph elected by Shura was uthman.The early muhajireen were the fav candidates for shura.

But yes Abubakr was well respected by almost all sahaba and had impeccable credentials

The Khawarij would have been opposed to muawiyah even before his rebellion, Martin Hinds did a study on the schisms in Iraq and lists many prominent individuals opposed to ummayyads and we see them later in camps of ALi or khawarij.


I said Shurha not Shura there is a big difference. Shurha is the correct name for a Khawarij and original term for an Ibadhi. Shura means consultation it is mentioned three times in the Quran and is Mustahabb within Fiqh as a way of consultation with the Ummah between an emir/Wilayet/Shaykh/Khilafah/etc.
 
I hope people study the individual figures involved at that time in the fitna then its an interesting lively discussion

I tried it on a muslim forum but trouble is the shia and sunni are blinded by their ideological beliefs and don't think of things objectively

Yes the first Fitnah is very interesting, especially the dynamics at Siffin.

Yea, Shia will not take this talk well, it seems very personal to them (obviously since it involved Ali so much). But yes I agree many Muslims, when you talk about the Khawarij start ranting about how ISIS or Al Qaedah is Khawarij this that in the other lol.
 

nastle

Banned
I said Shurha not Shura there is a big difference. Shurha is the correct name for a Khawarij and original term for an Ibadhi. Shura means consultation it is mentioned three times in the Quran and is Mustahabb within Fiqh as a way of consultation with the Ummah between an emir/Wilayet/Shaykh/Khilafah/etc.
Forgive my ignorance
My interest in khawarij is mainly till the death of Abdul Malik b Marwan
 

nastle

Banned
1. Gaining the support of the Sahaba or at least some of them. Even if it is not needed and doesn't really reinforce the ideals of the Shurha, as you say it gives credibility to the movement at least for a short time. This will be useful in fighting off the arguments of Ibn Abbas (the greatest Hafiz according to Sunni Islam) who is known to have stated:

Narrated by Abdullah ibn ‘Abbas

" I have come to you from amongst the companions of the prophet (peace and blessing, etc) the muhajiroon and the ansar and from the son of the uncle of the prophet (SAW), (Ali) who is his son in law. And upon them descended the Quran; they are more knowledgable about it than you and there is not one of them amongst you. I have come to convey to you what they say, and to convey to them what you say."

actually ive heard ibn abbas is well regarded by some khawarij factions ? no sure
But yes I really don't see them acquiring main provinces without Sahaba approval atleast ( if not in leadership positions)
2. To conceal themselves amongst the people and cause uprisings throughout the Caliphate as they did in North Africa and Iraq. Either ways, with or without the Sahaba, the Shurha must remove the notions of the Ahl al Bayt and other pro-Sahaba/Quryaish sentiments among the Ummah. Once they achieve this then, it is only a matter of a victory in battle
I think most of these sentiments are of a much later generation, the ahlulbayt and Sahaba ( in general) glorification

Although we cannot deny that tribalism was endemic in arab society at that time and its in the tribal context we should also see the veneration of ahlulbayt and Sahaba as well
e.g Ali in nahjulbalagah when mentioning the services of AHlulbayt includes Hamza and Ubaidah b harith ( killed in badr) amongst them
most shia today restrict ahlulbayt to 5 people and sunnis overemphasize the honorary inclusion of wives , what about the blood relatives of Prophet other than Ali
SOns of Jafar
sons of Harith
sons of abu lahab
sons of Abbas
sons of ZUbair ( brother of abu talib not zubair b awwam )

anyway im on a tangent sorry
 
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nastle

Banned
Yes the first Fitnah is very interesting, especially the dynamics at Siffin.

Yea, Shia will not take this talk well, it seems very personal to them (obviously since it involved Ali so much). But yes I agree many Muslims, when you talk about the Khawarij start ranting about how ISIS or Al Qaedah is Khawarij this that in the other lol.
Indeed its an addiction for me


khawarij get a lot of bad rep from both shia and sunni because of their egalitarian principles of leadership, but it must be admitted the first shurha or khawarij were very unreasonable and their opposition to ALi cost the Iraqis a victory over the Syrians and let to generations of Syrian domination of Iraq.Later SHurha modified their stance a lit and then the shia became more unreasonable.
If we see a Shurha -shia entente in Iraq during time of Muawiayh they might have pushed out the Syrians

Both shias and sunnis cannot tolerate objective criticism of the people they hold dear, esp shia who cannot even admit that Ali made an error of judgement.
 
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nastle

Banned
To conceal themselves amongst the people and cause uprisings throughout the Caliphate as they did in North Africa and Iraq. Either ways, with or without the Sahaba, the Shurha must remove the notions of the Ahl al Bayt and other pro-Sahaba/Quryaish sentiments among the Ummah. Once they achieve this then, it is only a matter of a victory in battle.

Yes like a "Anti ibn saba" movement lol
Interestingly countering the ummayyad lobby would be easy in Iraq Yemen and Hijaz
Persia was iffy anyway most of it nonmuslim at that time
Supporters of ALi in Iraq and Medina are pissed but they can be won over if the Khawarij highlite their anti-ummayyad and pro-Iraqi agenda I think ( few might still resent the khawarij) and downplay their personal hostility towards ALi , afterall the assassin of ALi might be killed as well.
Egypt after killing of AMr b a'as in our timeline is open , Amr leaves no clear successor and no one tribe is dominant there
If mauwiayh is killed so soon, then Abdur rehman b Khalid b walid is the most obvious successor and he is a formidable enemy.
I can see Shaam breaking away from the rest of the caliphate.Abdur rehman might be even more popular than muawiayh amongst the Syrians plus used to the luxurious byzantine lifestyle the Syrians might not welcome the strict austere lifestyle of tribals from Iraq/hijaz/yemen where khawarij drew their main supporters.
 
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actually ive heard ibn abbas is well regarded by some khawarij factions ? no sure
But yes I really don't see them acquiring main provinces without Sahaba approval atleast ( if not in leadership positions)

I think most of these sentiments are of a much later generation, the ahlulbayt and Sahaba ( in general) glorification

Although we cannot deny that tribalism was endemic in arab society at that time and its in the tribal context we should also see the veneration of ahlulbayt and Sahaba as well
e.g Ali in nahjulbalagah when mentioning the services of AHlulbayt includes Hamza and Ubaidah b harith ( killed in badr) amongst them
most shia today restrict ahlulbayt to 5 people and sunnis overemphasize the honorary inclusion of wives , what about the blood relatives of Prophet other than Ali
SOns of Jafar
sons of Harith
sons of abu lahab
sons of Abbas
sons of ZUbair ( brother of abu talib not zubair b awwam )

anyway im on a tangent sorry

Yes the Shurha definitely held Ibn Abbas in high standard. He was after all the greatest Hafiz. Hence they allowed him into their camp and allowed him to leave as well. If it was Ali or Muawiyah who entered into the camp, he surely would not have left alive.

Well yes, but there are numerous Hadith narrated from this time from Bukhari,Muslim, Dawud, Abbas, etc... Giving the Sahaba preference. I won't quote them unless asked lol, because you probably know how consuming it is to search Hadith collections.


Bukhari, narrated Abdullah
The prophet (SAW) said "The people of my generation are the best, then those that follow them, then those that follow the latter."

Now, you asked about the Sahaba and the criteria of being a Sahaba, there are technically no basic rule for who a Sahaba is between Shia, Sunni, Shurha, etc, but Sunni divide the Sahaba up into different categories depending upon when they embraced Islam and other ways. Al Suyuti (849-911 AH) defines the levels of Sahaba into 11 categories. Shia define Sahaba based on how they acted while Muhammad was alive, the ones who questioned him are considered evil, and it is then believed that most of them left the fold of Islam after Muhammad died. Thus Shia (except Zayydi) proclaim takfir on most of the Sahaba. As well, we have to understand that many Shia believe that Jabril was mistaken when he revealed the Quran to Muhammad, it is a big point of contention and is the beginning of mistrust between Shurha-Shia or Sunni-Shia relation (or even Mu'Tazila).
 
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