MIA's found in 'Nam

[David Howery]

one of the big conspiracy theories in the early '80s was that Vietnam was holding American prisoners in secret camps for nefarious reasons, years after the war was over. Let us suppose that this was true, and that the US govt. obtained absolute irrefutable evidence that Vietnam held at least 100 American soldiers in captivity. Supposing that this info goes public, what would the likely consequences be? Keep in mind that these years saw US/USSR relations at a very low point (Afghanistan), and that the USSR and Vietnam had a lot of treaties, one of which gave the Soviet navy basing rights in 'Nam. OTOH, China and Vietnam weren't happy with each other, due to the latter's invasion of Cambodia. How might all of this fall out?

[Beck Reilly]

I would expect, if the information went public, the results would have been disastrous. The US would have to demand the return of the prisoners, if the public was watching, and would have no choice but to act drastically was the demand refused. I suspect, however, that, had the SU, PRV, or PRC known that our public knew, they would try to conceal it. It would be an absolutely awful situation with no easy way out.

There's a book about this very same issue. It's called Charm School and it's by Nelson Demille. It's not AH but strict fiction. In the 1980s, an American tourist in the SU runs into a man claiming to be a US Air Force officer, escaped from a Soviet camp holding hundreds of American officers. The whole plot is about that camp and the reasons behind its existence. The main character is a US embassy employee working to figure out the mystery. Overall, it's a real good read. The ending sucks, but I don't want to ruin it for you in case you decide to read it.

[David Howery]

the US would have to demand the return of the prisoners? You don't think they would be screaming mad about it and want to do it, public knowledge or not?

[Beck Reilly]

I think you may be underestimating the depths which our politicians would sink to. No matter what, it's an extremely bad situation that's going to get noticed by the public when the PoW's are returned.

[Melvin Loh]

According to Eric Haney in INSIDE DELTA FORCE, there WERE still by 1981 about 500 US POWs being held in captivity in Laos, and a rescue mission was organised to go in and bust 'em out, until the op was compromised by Bo Gritz shooting his mouth off.

[NapoleonXIV]

If you've read Charm School please tell me the author's "reasons behind the camps existence". I don't plan on looking up and obtaining the book so it wont be a spoiler for me and you can simply put a spoiler alert in your reply.

The main thing I was never able to figure out about the MIA controversy was what plausible reason the Vietnamese/Laotians, etc. would have for keeping the prisoners in any case. I can see no way that alive they constitute anything but a deadly liability to their captors

[David Howery]

I always wondered about that too.... maybe just out of sheer spite?

[Beck Reilly]

Originally Posted by NapoleonXIV

If you've read Charm School please tell me the author's "reasons behind the camps existence". I don't plan on looking up and obtaining the book so it wont be a spoiler for me and you can simply put a spoiler alert in your reply.

SPOILER

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InCharm School, it turns out that the PoW camp, which houses anywhere between 300 and 600 pilots, is being used to train KGB agents on how to act like an American. In exchange for relative freedom around the "town" the camp has set up and relatively good lives, including wives and children, the PoW's are forced to teach classes on how to act and be an American. Although, at least initially, some pilots refuse to teach, they are killed. Many however, want to live with the hope of the US government finding out and are just happy to be out of the hands of the NV's.

[Kurt_Steiner]

2413 men were considered as MIA when the war was over. I dunno how many of them may be still alive.

[MerryPrankster]

I'd heard that if there are MIAs still being held by the Communists, it's as a bargaining chip to get $$ from the US.

I'd also heard that Stalin got his hands on some US folks liberated from German camps that he planned on using to trade for Soviet dissidents and/or Nazi collaborators, German rocket scientists, etc. that had fallen into Allied hands. The atrocity known as "Operation Keelhaul" might have been an attempt to get those men back. Remember, the USSR kept German POWs and used them for slave labor until sometime in the 1950s.

[Kurt_Steiner]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think that "Operation Keelhaul" was involved in turning back to sent back into the vengeful hands of Stalin all the Russian soliders serving in the Wehrmacht, not German soldiers.

[MerryPrankster]

"Keelhaul" involved a lot of people getting sent back to Stalin...Soviet collaborators (often members of minority groups persecuted by Stalin before Hitler came), refugees, whole Cossack tribes, some divisions of the Finnish Army (!) that were raised on territory (re)occupied by Finland during the Continuation War (though I believe the handover was separate from "Keelhaul" itself but it's an example of the Allies' attitude towards those fleeing Stalin), etc.

I can tell you all sorts of horror stories about these people slitting their own throats with hidden blades to avoid facing the NKVD, folks refusing to get on the ships back to Russia who were shot, etc.

I brought up the German POWs b/c it showed that people who fell into Stalin's hands WERE NOT going to get out...the German prisoners were released only after Stalin died. They weren't included in "Keelhaul."

[Brilliantlight]

Originally Posted by NapoleonXIV

If you've read Charm School please tell me the author's "reasons behind the camps existence". I don't plan on looking up and obtaining the book so it wont be a spoiler for me and you can simply put a spoiler alert in your reply.

The main thing I was never able to figure out about the MIA controversy was what plausible reason the Vietnamese/Laotians, etc. would have for keeping the prisoners in any case. I can see no way that alive they constitute anything but a deadly liability to their captors

All through history there have been MIAs unaccounted for. I am with you and think it is almost certain that they are all dead and rotted.

[aktarian]

Originally Posted by Kurt_Steiner

2413 men were considered as MIA when the war was over. I dunno how many of them may be still alive.

Isn't there a rule of thumb that 80-90% of MIA are KIA but can't be confirmed as such?

[Kurt_Steiner]

As fair I can remember, most of the cases were not of dead people, but prisoners seen at Hanoi or in prisoners camp.

By the way. There was an officer of the US Army, captain Charles Shelton, MIA in Laos in 1965, who was considered as being alive in 1989 (source: Dossier NAM, edited by Editorial Planeta - February 1989). Is he still considered as a living MIA or he was officially "killed"?

[Guiman]

Considering the conditions they were kept in, it is unlikely that they would have survived until the 80s, let alone Y2K. Vietnam could never admit to keeping them and still normalize relations with the US. Additionally, what purpose could holding US prisoners serve. Certainly no intelligence can be gleaned from them and they would be a tremendous liability.

[Brilliantlight]

Originally Posted by Guiman

Considering the conditions they were kept in, it is unlikely that they would have survived until the 80s, let alone Y2K. Vietnam could never admit to keeping them and still normalize relations with the US. Additionally, what purpose could holding US prisoners serve. Certainly no intelligence can be gleaned from them and they would be a tremendous liability.

Exactly, some may have died in camps, but they are all dead.