Ernst Udet dies 3 June 1936, Walther Wever does not

M79

Ernst Udet was a key figure in developing CAS bombers like the Ju 87 for the Germans, Walther Wever was trying to promote strategic bombers like the He 177 and Ju 89. Suppose Udet is killed on 3 June 1936 instead of Wever. What effect does this have on the Luftwaffe, if any?
 
oldironside

oldironside

M79 said:
Ernst Udet was a key figure in developing CAS bombers like the Ju 87 for the Germans, Walther Wever was trying to promote strategic bombers like the He 177 and Ju 89. Suppose Udet is killed on 3 June 1936 instead of Wever. What effect does this have on the Luftwaffe, if any?
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The single biggest difference was that Wever was competent, Udet (nice guy though he was) was not.

Given Udet's tendency to accept bullshit from aircraft manufacturers at face value, removing him from the picture would improve the mid-war performance of the Luftwaffe. Projects such as the Me210, He177, Ju288 etc would not have been mismanaged to the point they became the drain on resources they were.

A Luftwaffe without dive bombers would be a very interesting prospect. I can imagine a long and... entertaining discussion here as to whether they could have had the success in 1939-1941 they enjoyed OTL.
 

Ian Hathaway

What people tend to forget about Udet is his influence on bomber escorts during his time as inspector of fighters. He increased the ratio of fighters to bombers considerably. Whilst the Luftwaffe didn't win the Battle of Britain imagine how different it would have been without Udet and without the extra 400-500 fighters he insisted were added.
 

Deleted member 1487

Ian Hathaway said:
What people tend to forget about Udet is his influence on bomber escorts during his time as inspector of fighters. He increased the ratio of fighters to bombers considerably. Whilst the Luftwaffe didn't win the Battle of Britain imagine how different it would have been without Udet and without the extra 400-500 fighters he insisted were added.
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Got a source on that? I've read a lot about the Luftwaffe and have never come across this.

Also Udet did not develop the Ju87, Stukas as a special class of aircraft would have existed without him, its just a question of whether it would be the Ju87 or not. Have Udet die testing the He118 then you get the Ju87 and all the benefits of Wever.
 

pattersonautobody

M79 said:
Ernst Udet was a key figure in developing CAS bombers like the Ju 87 for the Germans, Walther Wever was trying to promote strategic bombers like the He 177 and Ju 89. Suppose Udet is killed on 3 June 1936 instead of Wever. What effect does this have on the Luftwaffe, if any?
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Germany doesn't beat France and has a harder time in Poland. Germany's airforce was built for supporting breakthroughs. Take that away, they can't be France in 1940.
 

wietze

why not top it and have udet die during the Ju87 testflight in may 1934.
instead of the ju87, they go with the HS123.
due to no udet, there will be no obsession with divebombing, allowing the me262 to be around earlier, and also the 177 to be active earlier.

don't think it will make a lot of difference, they will still develop those breakthrough tactics, now with the hs123 instead (which is a quite capable & robust CAS plane)
 

deathscompanion1

Banned
The Stuka (or whatever) and associated medium bombers providing CAS was near inevitable. Germany is a land power, the Heer was the senior service and the only war it could win was a short mobile one relying on quality. Using aircraft as a force multiplier and an artillery weapon was a no brainer even Goering understood this.

If the Luftwaffe say screw CAS the Heer revolt and bitch to Hitler (including those in his inner circle who he actually listened to) until Goering slaps down the idiot in charge of such an illsuited doctrine.

The Luftwaffe was a tactical force with dreams of being a strategic one that they tried to make a reality in face of all odds. But only after it had developed a strong CAS arm because that is what Hitler and the Heer wanted from it.
 

Deleted member 1487

deathscompanion1 said:
The Stuka (or whatever) and associated medium bombers providing CAS was near inevitable. Germany is a land power, the Heer was the senior service and the only war it could win was a short mobile one relying on quality. Using aircraft as a force multiplier and an artillery weapon was a no brainer even Goering understood this.

If the Luftwaffe say screw CAS the Heer revolt and bitch to Hitler (including those in his inner circle who he actually listened to) until Goering slaps down the idiot in charge of such an illsuited doctrine.

The Luftwaffe was a tactical force with dreams of being a strategic one that they tried to make a reality in face of all odds. But only after it had developed a strong CAS arm because that is what Hitler and the Heer wanted from it.
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There was a pretty straight line in terms of CAS/army support including Wever, an army man. Army support was high on the list of things Wever was all on board for. Even Stukas had his support, but it was up to Richthofen to pick which one would get the nod and the Ju87 contract was ultimately up to Udet crashing the rival design in July 1936 and 'proving' it was worse than the Ju87.
 

Ian Hathaway

wiking said:
Got a source on that? I've read a lot about the Luftwaffe and have never come across this.

Also Udet did not develop the Ju87, Stukas as a special class of aircraft would have existed without him, its just a question of whether it would be the Ju87 or not. Have Udet die testing the He118 then you get the Ju87 and all the benefits of Wever.
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Therefore, the prescription for aircraft production prior to the Spanish War, based on the assumption that fighters were not required for homeland defense, was three bombers to every fighter. When, as a result of the Spanish War, Colonel Ernst Udet, head of the Luftwaffe's technical department and Office of Air Armament, decided to change the Luftwaffe's force structure from a three bomber to one fighter ratio to two bomber to one fighter ratio, it was for purely offensive reasons.
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http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p133_Oppenheimer.html#ftn25

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p133_Oppenheimer.html

There is also a mention of it in Bekker's 'Luftwaffe War Diaries' I think but unfortunately I don't have my copy to hand to confirm this.
 

Ian Hathaway

wiking said:
That was based on combat experience; why would Udet be the only guy to learn from the SCW? IOTL Wever was dead by then and Udet in charge of production.
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This is a pretty poor response, especially from you Wiking.

Yes you are right someone else may have spotted that bombers would require more fighter escorts after combat experience ... but it's also just as likely that they wouldn't.

Yes OTL Wever was dead, however this thread is about Udet dying instead of Wever and I was just trying to point out that there may well have been other butterflies that come with Udet's death.
10.02.36 appt Chef of the Technischen Amt d.Lw./RLM (to 31.01.39)

10.02.36 appt Inspekteur der Stuka-Flieger (to 08.06.36)

01.02.39 appt Generalluftzeugmeister u. Chef des Planungamt d. Lw./RLM (to 17.11.41)

01.02.39 concurrently appt General-Inspekteur d. Jagdflieger.
​
Udet was not in charge of production after the Spanish Civil war, and even if he was what difference would that make?
 

Deleted member 1487

He was in fact in charge of production planning due to Goering disempowering Milch and elevating the technical office to that role.
http://translate.google.com/transla.../de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Udet&prev=search
Udet is considered responsible for the misguided German air defense during the first years of the war, who suffered mainly due to their tremendous inefficiency and the fact that the policy targets and the actual course of the war were completely contrary. Goering gave him on 1 February 1939, the new office of Generalluftzeugmeister master. Udet in this function to the Secretary of the Air Ministry, and was Chief of Staff of the Luftwaffe Erhard Milch assumed. Thus, the competence of the now-led Udet Technical Office, which was now responsible not only for the entire aircraft development and production, but also for procurement, supply and supply extended. Was it a mistake to let Udet lead this office, so this was now more so because Udet had indeed been earlier efforts to fill the post. . Henceforth He oversaw 26 departments with 4,000 officers, officials and engineers, while in charge of everything, but were responsible for nothing itself [3] The Office of Generalluftzeugmeister Master meant another competence circumcision for Erhard Milch, who noted with resignation: "is in Udet's hands everything to dust. " [3]

Udet, art and airshow aviator, filmmaker and propaganda figure of the Nazi state, though possessed excellent flying experience, but no technical or organizational skills. Although he acknowledged these weaknesses themselves, Goering prevailed and told him all the necessary human help for the administration to. Udet's real mission was einzuschwören aircraft manufacturers on a common line, synergies to produce and to avoid redundancies in the development, so as to optimize the air armament. Instead, he was at the mercy of the particular interests of Messerschmitt , Heinkel and Junkers , who succeeded again and again, to inspire him regardless of the actual benefits and the costs of their projects so that Udet its specific task nachkam inadequately.
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I get you were seeking out butterflies, but you don't have to force differences just for the sake of having them; its extremely unlikely that Wever and his staff wouldn't take the same lessons to heart if not even more.
 
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