Challenge: (Some of) the Spanish colonies rebel in the 1770s

As part of a TL I'm thinking of doing (but not the actual POD, which is earlier) the English colonies in America reach an accomodation with Britain after the *Seven Years' War; however, I intend for Rio de la Plata to rebel against Spain a few years later. Does anyone know of any specific issues there in that period that could have blown up into a rebellion?

Throughout the history of the Spanish colonies, there was the Casa de Contratación (also called casa de castration), the infamous office for the economy of the colonies. Incompetent and corrupt, the colonists hated them.

No, doesn't work, it was abolished already by Carlos III in the 18th century.

Thande

I know there was a fairly big revolt in Peru in about the 1780's. Think it was led by a descendant of the Inca royal family and had widespread support. However don't think that would be much help other than possibly encouraging unrest somewhere else or drawing away French strength.

The other option that comes to mind might be an Anglo-Spanish clash. Think the 1st dispute over the Falklands was about that period, along with one over the Oregon coast region. That might give the opportunity for Britain to support such revolts, hoping to both weaken Spain and gain access to the colonial markets. Possibly, because our own colonial problem is resolved Britain has more resources/desire for this and helps them break away. Say some local conflict over abuse by Spanish aristocrats upsetting the settlers triggers it or a more successful Peruvian revolt, possibly with some British support helps inspire or trigger it in some way. With the protection of the Royal navy to prevent the Spanish sending reinforcements either/both might succeed.

Steve

Max Sinister said:

Throughout the history of the Spanish colonies, there was the Casa de Contratación (also called casa de castration), the infamous office for the economy of the colonies. Incompetent and corrupt, the colonists hated them.

No, doesn't work, it was abolished already by Carlos III in the 18th century.

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The colonists hated them because of the Laws of Indias that protected the Indians. They saw them as a threat to their own welfare.

I think that won't be the only reason (if at all). They regulated the economy of the colonies to death, demanded more and more... noone likes to pay taxes, esp. if they don't get anything in return.

@stevep: You mean Tupac Amaru.

All right, thanks for the suggestions, chaps. A few more points:

Peru will also be rebelling along with LaPlata (forgot to mention this) so the rebellion could start in Peru.

The Viceroyalty of Rio de la Plata was established in 1776 OTL. If it wasn't, for whatever reason, would this trigger any discontent among the populace?

SteveP, I was hoping for French rather than British support of the rebellious colonists (equivalent to the ARW in OTL). Spain and Britain are still geopolitical allies in TTL because there hasn't been a greater ARW; therefore Britain would have no reason to support the colonists.

IIRC there was a alliance [1600's] between GB and Spain against France, After it broke down Spain allied with France . Which lasted till Napolean and 1807.

So Maintain the GB/Spain Alliance, the Yankees get to trade with the Spainish Caribean, and attack French America. this Butterflies away the ARW. However most of New Spain is into it's 9th~10th generation. the common people are beging to consider themselves as Mexicans or Peruvians, as opposed to Spainish. France Invades and Conquers[???] Spain. Spainish America revolts against the new French Spainish government. Several years later when the king of spain is restrored, these now Independent governments don't want to give up .

Thande said:

SteveP, I was hoping for French rather than British support of the rebellious colonists (equivalent to the ARW in OTL). Spain and Britain are still geopolitical allies in TTL because there hasn't been a greater ARW; therefore Britain would have no reason to support the colonists.

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thande

Not sure what you mean about Britain and Spain being geopolitical allies? After the Bourbon succession in Spain it was generally closely linked to France. Also it tried to keep its colonial trade as closed as possible. As I said there were also territorial clashed over the Falklands and British Columbia regions which nearly led to war. It could be that some clash, say over a British citizen arrested for allegedly supplying arms to the rebels, leading to an incident such as that with captain Jenkins in 1739. or some British groups want to break Spanish power and open up the colonies to our trade. This was popular with many of the settlers because the Spanish products were generally less efficient.

Steve

Max Sinister said:

I think that won't be the only reason (if at all). They regulated the economy of the colonies to death, demanded more and more... noone likes to pay taxes, esp. if they don't get anything in return.

@stevep: You mean Tupac Amaru.

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Max

Thanks. Long long time since I read about it but that sounds like the name. From what I remember it was a pretty big revolt that took a while to put down. Not sure whether it might have succeeded with some external support.

Steve

stevep said:

thande

Not sure what you mean about Britain and Spain being geopolitical allies? After the Bourbon succession in Spain it was generally closely linked to France. Also it tried to keep its colonial trade as closed as possible. As I said there were also territorial clashed over the Falklands and British Columbia regions which nearly led to war. It could be that some clash, say over a British citizen arrested for allegedly supplying arms to the rebels, leading to an incident such as that with captain Jenkins in 1739. or some British groups want to break Spanish power and open up the colonies to our trade. This was popular with many of the settlers because the Spanish products were generally less efficient.

Steve

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Ahh...my mistake...because Spain gained territory from France in the Seven Years' War I had assumed she was allied with Britain...

In that case the Anglo-Spanish alliance will have to wait until after the Argentine rebellion, perhaps until the time when it happened in OTL (the 1800s).

Would British support for the Argentines sour Anglo-Spanish relations too much later on, do you think?

Bump....

A few more questions.

After LaPlata and Peru's independence is assured, I plan to have the remaining Spanish colonies, New Granada and New Spain, make demands from Madrid for greater self-rule and fairer policies etc. or they will join the rebellion too.

Does anyone know of any specific issues they might want action on? Also, was popular representation considered worth fighting for in Spanish America as it was in the OTL American Revolutionary War? Or was the prevailing wisdom too absolutist?

I have a vague idea of Spain reversing the Decreto de Nueva Planta, decentralising things and giving the remaining Viceroyalties similar status to the different Crowns of Spain prior to 1715. Is this perhaps going a bit far?

At this rate, I'm going to have to resort to the more traditional method of research, i.e. post some bollocks and wait for the experts to post some angry corrections

Thande said:

Ahh...my mistake...because Spain gained territory from France in the Seven Years' War I had assumed she was allied with Britain...

In that case the Anglo-Spanish alliance will have to wait until after the Argentine rebellion, perhaps until the time when it happened in OTL (the 1800s).

Would British support for the Argentines sour Anglo-Spanish relations too much later on, do you think?

Click to expand...

Thande

Sorry about the late response but been rather busy with family matters this last week.

Spain gained western Louisiana from France in part as compensation for its losses in the 7 years war, which it joined as a French ally, the so called Bourbon Compact. Possibly also Britain backed the change as it saw Spain replacing France there as posing less of a threat.

British support for the rebels would sour relations to a degree but there weren't very good anyway most of the time. Spain was only briefly allied with Britain and other powers against early revolutionary French then made peace and became something of a puppet of the French state. It was only after Napoleon's decide to depose the Bourbons and put his brother Joseph on the throne that really brought the Spanish into widespread revolt. After that Britain supported them as enemies of Imperial France but there was a degree of mistrust on both sides even during the Peninsula War.

As such I doubt if British support for a successful rebellion will greatly block any alliance later on if its in the interests of the two powers. [After all Spain supported the American rebellion for instance and the two clashed over the Falklands and Oregon regions].

Hope this helps.

Steve

Thande said:

Bump....

A few more questions.

After LaPlata and Peru's independence is assured, I plan to have the remaining Spanish colonies, New Granada and New Spain, make demands from Madrid for greater self-rule and fairer policies etc. or they will join the rebellion too.

Does anyone know of any specific issues they might want action on? Also, was popular representation considered worth fighting for in Spanish America as it was in the OTL American Revolutionary War? Or was the prevailing wisdom too absolutist?

I have a vague idea of Spain reversing the Decreto de Nueva Planta, decentralising things and giving the remaining Viceroyalties similar status to the different Crowns of Spain prior to 1715. Is this perhaps going a bit far?

Click to expand...

Thande

Not sure I know enough about the period. The question might be would the Spanish government want to loosen up or tighten the reins further as it view things as having got too slack. Also you might have their position boosted by disgruntled loyalists from the lost colonies being resettled in the remaining territories.

On the other hand, from my limited knowledge I suspect that the colonies might have been too divided racially and socially. Think they were generally fairly stratified, with Peninsula born Spanish, locally born Spanish and then mixed-bloods, going down to the native Indians at the base of the pile.

Also, although Peru was the source of the big revolt in the 1780's it was the most loyal area a generation later. It wasn't until the 1820's the Spanish/loyalist forces were finally driven from the region by the neighbouring areas to secure their own independence. [Could be that after the 1780 revolt Spain had more forces in the region, or settled more Spanish perhaps to explain this reversal of position. Or possibly remaining pro-independence groups had the stuffing knocked out of them?]

Only real issue I know of for the more influential colonists, because of the way it affected relations with Britain and other powers, was the Spanish insistence on a monopoly of trade with them. This was fairly standard with the European powers of the time but given the declining state of the Spanish economy and its limited industrial base, it couldn't really supply what the colonists wanted. Hence a lot of smuggling, which angered the Spanish government more both because its laws were being breached and also, by bypassing tariffs it cut revenue.

One point. If New Spain stays in Spanish hands after the southern colonies are lost might they make more efforts to settle California? Both as one of the best outlets for imperial interest and possibly there might be loyalists escaping from the lost provinces?

Steve

Steve, thanks a lot for all your ideas. I do actually intend to have California break away as well some time in the 1830s (which will be an Age of Revolutions similar to 1848 in OTL).

I think the only thing to do here is for me to write a basic outline of what's going to happen, and then wait for some people who know a lot about Latin America in this period to correct me on it

Sequence of events so far is:

1. Seven Years' War similar to OTL. Not necessarily identical; POD is earlier.

2. American colonies placated with various new Whig constitutional measures.

3. Unrest in Peru. Attempt to restore an Indian state under an Inca pretender. (More widespread and successful than OTL). Spanish forces move to quell the rebellion. An army from Spain proper is deployed to LaPlata, as parts of Chile are also rising (as they were also part of the Inca state and had a large Indian population - is this plausible, anyone??)

4. The more usually loyal people of LaPlata become restless because firstly the Spanish troops are accused of acts like 'appropriating' homes and goods for military use etc., and secondly, what with all this chaos, the Spanish have shelved their plans to elevate LaPlata to Viceroyalty status.

5. After some Peterloo-like atrocity by the Spanish army, LaPlata also rises in rebellion, ironically just as the Spaniards have just about managed to crush the original revolt in Peru.

6. The war spreads. Britain, champion of Liberalism (and British interests ) declares war on Spain and supports the colonists. Analogous role to France in the OTL ARW.

7. The LaPlatans guarantee the area of OTL Argentina, Chile and Paraguay. Portugal quietly sends troops into the disputed area that would become Uruguay in OTL. The LaPlatans eventually also drive the Spaniards from Peru again, but do not support the now-crushed Inca revolt. The new LaPlatan state is not too friendly to Indians (cf. that unpopular law Max mentioned in the second post of this thread).

8. France declares war on Britain to support Spain, loses a major sea battle, but also achieves some victories. However, more importantly, the French treasury is strained by this venture, though not to the same extent as it was in OTL by supporting the ARW.

9. Treaty of London (or wherever) ; Spain relinquishes control of the former Viceroyalty of Peru and what would have become the Viceroyalty of LaPlata. The whole area eventually becomes known as the United Provinces (I believe this was a term used by the much later LaPlata/Argentina independence movement in OTL?) I also want to use the term Bolivaria as it is something we'd all recognise, but I suppose it would have to be a different Bolivar...

10. Reform movement takes hold in Spain, decides causes of Peruvian and LaPlatan rebellions were too much centralised absolutism, points to French defeat in 7 Years' War. Over the next few decades, more power will be devolved to both the two remaining Viceroyalties, New Spain and New Granada, and also to the former kingdoms making up Spain i.e. the less radical Catalonian independence movements should be sated by an autonomous Aragon. Eventually Spain will be seen as a champion of the Indians, in contrast to LaPlata, and New Spain's name is changed to Mexico to underline this. New Granada follows suit, deciding on the name Colombia.

11. French Republican Wars, analogous to OTL French Revolutionary War.



Comments?