The predecessor for the PS1 GPU dates 1986!

flydeath

If any of you guys remember a month back in my first tread I posted this https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=350930

I asked what sort of steps NEC and Hudson Soft could make to successfully enter the video game market. Originally I proposed the idea for the ARM2 chip to be used on NEC console as well as a cd drive as standard!

However just recently I found out about this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TMS34010 and more importantly this http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/vivid24!

This is crazy and apparently they even offered Sega and Nintendo to uses these chips for use on their consoles! Even crazier is the TMS 34082 microprocessor yes microprocessor was capable of 40 MFLOPS each and it could be stack by 4x. That's a ps1 right there in 1989 to boot!

I'm just think of all of the what if this causes, say for example were to follow my original arcade first then later console root while teaming up with say Capcom, Midway, and Namco. Namco would love it for its 3d capabilities and definitely show it off while Capcome and Midway just have to be themselves to be awesome!
 

RySenkari

The key is how much it would cost. Radically powerful gaming systems for their day (NeoGeo, Laseractive, etc.) flopped because of the price. The Super Nintendo costing 500 bucks would probably cause it to fail.
 

flydeath

RySenkari said:
The key is how much it would cost. Radically powerful gaming systems for their day (NeoGeo, Laseractive, etc.) flopped because of the price. The Super Nintendo costing 500 bucks would probably cause it to fail.
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True and in fact i'm trying to find a price for this but my google foo is failing me though I imagine it be very high hence the arcade cabinet first. In fact the mortal combat cabinet ran with this hardware inside so it should be manageable by 1991/1992 ish?
 

Nivek

flydeath said:
So I fond out the price for the Vivid 24 containing all 5 processors is a whooping 8k in 1992 money! well this is depressing :(

http://aminet.net/package/gfx/misc/VividCompare
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That is the vivid alone who was the voodoo of the era(and that for high end market) how much was the TMS34010?

this paragraph is interesting:
TI made an unsuccessful effort in 1987 and 1988 to convince games makers such as Nintendo and Sega to write 3D games and create a new console market. In 1987 TI provided the first demonstration of true real-time 3D games with stereo sound effects on a personal computer (PC), using a small TMS34010 adapter card (called "The Flippy"). The Flippy was designed as the basis of a game development system for consoles and as a PC gaming card in its own right. TI's effort foreshadowed the creation of 3D game consoles by both companies as well as Sony in the early 1990s, and the creation of the 3D game and graphics adapter markets in PCs.

Early n64 or Model 1 for either company?
 

starwarsfan

Nivek said:
That is the vivid alone who was the voodoo of the era(and that for high end market) how much was the TMS34010?

this paragraph is interesting:
TI made an unsuccessful effort in 1987 and 1988 to convince games makers such as Nintendo and Sega to write 3D games and create a new console market. In 1987 TI provided the first demonstration of true real-time 3D games with stereo sound effects on a personal computer (PC), using a small TMS34010 adapter card (called "The Flippy"). The Flippy was designed as the basis of a game development system for consoles and as a PC gaming card in its own right. TI's effort foreshadowed the creation of 3D game consoles by both companies as well as Sony in the early 1990s, and the creation of the 3D game and graphics adapter markets in PCs.

Early n64 or Model 1 for either company?
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Sounds like an interesting pod
 

flydeath

One definitive to take way from this is that in 1989 Namco which was developed a 16 bit console to compete against the Super Famicom, they actually went to NEC to partner up on it and help promote the system however Hudson soft felt threaten and instead pushed out their own upgrade on the pc engine. What the rumor mill states that had Namco won the Super Pc engine would have actually have used Namco's hardware.

its also important to note that Namco stated 16 bit not 32 that means it most obviously would have used the Motorola 68k its the same chip they used on all of their arcades of the time and intact some theorized that maybe they would have used the TSM graphics chip with it.

That ultimately makes many point to the system 21 or for that mater the 22. the 22 had a variant called the super system 22 and some ask if this is the homage to the failed super pc engine of 1989.

What ever the case its really interesting to know what could have happened if any one of the things previously posted had come to fruition.
 

Nivek

Namco arcades game would be interesting(not much before 3d revolution) but remakes and improved port all their pre 1988 hit would be a selling point, alongside Capcom ones(NEC got Street Figther II before sega) but the rest, would be minor, may or may not butterfly away tales of phantasia(Telenet shopped to publishers, Namco,Enix and Nintendo were the most interested but Namco jumped first).

Maybe all three parties accept, Hudson would keep his right and the system would use hu cards for BW compatiblity, TurboExpress and saving games, but the system would use CD(cheaper for NEC and proved with pc engine CD) and Namco would gain first party status, maybe using that chip?.

and about the quote, what if Nintendo or sega buy The Flippy?
 

flydeath

Nivek said:
Namco arcades game would be interesting(not much before 3d revolution) but remakes and improved port all their pre 1988 hit would be a selling point, alongside Capcom ones(NEC got Street Figther II before sega) but the rest, would be minor, may or may not butterfly away tales of phantasia(Telenet shopped to publishers, Namco,Enix and Nintendo were the most interested but Namco jumped first).

Maybe all three parties accept, Hudson would keep his right and the system would use hu cards for BW compatiblity, TurboExpress and saving games, but the system would use CD(cheaper for NEC and proved with pc engine CD) and Namco would gain first party status, maybe using that chip?.

and about the quote, what if Nintendo or sega buy The Flippy?
Click to expand...

There are some many great things to think about this, with the system 21 Namco was definitely eager to show off 3d games, and any arcade deal would definitely need to have access to 3d capable hardware. Hence the tsm chips with would get both 2d and 3d improvements if they teamed up with NEC.

One thing that I have decide on is the Cpu and that is the Motorola 68020, this is the same chip that powered the system 22 and more importantly its PC compatible so NEC can sell PC version of the Arcade board.

This also brings up some one else who at this time is still in the pc business. hehe
 

Nivek

flydeath said:
There are some many great things to think about this, with the system 21 Namco was definitely eager to show off 3d games, and any arcade deal would definitely need to have access to 3d capable hardware. Hence the tsm chips with would get both 2d and 3d improvements if they teamed up with NEC.

One thing that I have decide on is the Cpu and that is the Motorola 68020, this is the same chip that powered the system 22 and more importantly its PC compatible so NEC can sell PC version of the Arcade board.

This also brings up some one else who at this time is still in the pc business. hehe
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Yeah, not for nothing Motorolla 68K was the standard, even nintendo considered one for super famicom(but backed down when that one was not friendly for Memory Managment Chips like the 6502 series).

Which is that company?=
 

flydeath

Nivek said:
Yeah, not for nothing Motorolla 68K was the standard, even nintendo considered one for super famicom(but backed down when that one was not friendly for Memory Managment Chips like the 6502 series).

Which is that company?=
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Not telling! :>
 

flydeath

Hey I have a quick question and this is for some of the early 3d arcade systems, if you ever look at the Namco system 21/22 Sega model 1 and 2 ect they all use multiple Digital Signal Processor or DSP to basically act like 3d graphical chip or to help supplement it. Well just how effective are they? How can you rate them? Can they be used to benefit 2d gaming? And how much more power can they give to a Arcade console system?
 

Nivek

flydeath said:
Hey I have a quick question and this is for some of the early 3d arcade systems, if you ever look at the Namco system 21/22 Sega model 1 and 2 ect they all use multiple Digital Signal Processor or DSP to basically act like 3d graphical chip or to help supplement it. Well just how effective are they? How can you rate them? Can they be used to benefit 2d gaming? And how much more power can they give to a Arcade console system?
Click to expand...

For system 21 can not call, but system 22 used two Texas instruiment DSP http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=537 for the 3D calculation(vertex, polygons) when sega models,were special chips co develop with Martin Marietta and later Lockhead Martin Alongside special software for 3D CG.

When those DSP were hardcode for 3D, with some software and programming would help massively in 2D, remember Starfox, Use the Super FX and yoshi island use a special verison for their special 2D graphics and effects.

Arcade power is always equal their components and the budget of it.
 

flydeath

Definitely one of the dsp that come to mind is the Motorola 56000, could it work as a co processor to say the tms 34 series, or would just be better to use Texas instrument own dsps? Another interesting note and this time relating to the Motorola 68020, it historically could could clock out as high as 33 mhz however I do know that its transistor die size is was at 2 macro meters, by 1986 .800 nano meter transistors dies were available and I wanted to get an accurate guess on how high the cpu could be clocked at this smaller transistor size?
 

Kalvan

The Motorola 56000 and 96000 series worked best as audio DSPs. That's the way it was used by NeXT, Apple, and Atari.
 
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