Rise of the Hui - Timur's Dream

AN: This is my first timeline so please be as harsh as possible! This was inspired by my thread on the "Islamic China" challenge where a discussion arose as to how an Islamic state in China would look and function. I'm still trying to work out the details but hopefully we can iron things out as we go along. I'd like some constructive criticism on this piece and anyone who would like to point out any factual or logical errors please speak up. I'm experimenting a bit with style, I'm thinking of making a TL with certain portions presented in a literary narrative style while others in a more encyclopedic way.

The POD is Timur does not die while marching to conquer the Ming Dynasty and instead succeeds at reaching China. There he allied with the remnants of the Yuan dynasty in Mongolia and converts many of their leaders to Islam. This Timurid-Northern Yuan alliance attacks Northern China and the rest is history.

So without further ado, I present Rise of the Hui - Timur's Dream

RISE OF THE HUI - TIMUR'S DREAM


'With eyes like fire and voice of thunder
Timur the lame tore nations asunder
The scourge of god, the morning sword
Their blunder they could not afford
And they burned when they faced him'
-Timur the Lame, excerpt from a 15th century Hui poem written by Fa Bufan

The winter winds snapped at their heels like a hungry pack of wolves, their cold teeth piercing into their skin, every step sending an ache of pain coursing through their bodies.

Their movement was slow and rhythmic, as deep as a drum. The sea of men marched on despite the cold. Many knew they would not live to see winter through, but better to risk the wrath of nature then bring down upon them the anger of Timur.

Samir had no idea how large this army was. Just by looking at the serried ranks surrounding him he'd have to estimate they were in the region of hundreds of thousands. Men of all sizes and races made up Timur's army. The large man plodding next to Samir was as swarthy as they came, Indian most probably, or an Arab. Behind his bushy black beard he wore a deep scowl. Dispersed through the army were Turks, Mongols, Persians - all who took Timur's banner as their own when the great warlord had marched upon their cities and massacred their families.

Samir had not yet experienced battle. He did not fight the Ottomans at Ankara, nor did he clash at Terek River. He was still half a boy, green as they came, not yet understanding the full meaning of war. When he had offered his sword to Timur back in Samarkand he was drunk on ideas of glory and bloodlust. Where is that boy now? Samir thought. He did not want to admit it to himself but deep down he could feel fear churning in his stomach. He didn't even know where they were marching to or what heathen foe they would be fighting next.

"Where do you think we're going?" Samir asked his dark companion, for want of taking his mind off the weight of his armour more so than any interest in conversation.

"Egypt, paleface" the larger man replied, his accent as thick as his neck.

"What will we find there?" Samir continued, now genuinely intrigued.

"A war."

Samir was now struggling to keep up, his legs seemed unable to hold his weight. The last thing he wanted was to fall back and disrupt the the rhythm of the army. How can they all keep? he asked himself.

"You must be stupid," a voice from behind Samir sneered, "we are not marching on Egypt,"

"Who dares call Jahal of Agra an idiot?" the dark man boomed, turning his head, "was it you, paleface?"

Samir shook his head furiously.

"It was I, brother," a tall figure from behind them replied, "we are marching east, not west,"

"So?" Jahal grunted.

"So Egypt is not east," the other man replied, rolling his eyes.

"Then where are we going?" the irratation was apparent in Jahal's voice. Samir was half worried he would strike at the first thing at hand - which was unfortunately Samir's face.

"It is simple," the other man said, smiling, "we will find our war in China,"

Hmm keep up.

er I dont think the timurids ahd the logistics or capabilities to go up against he qing dynasty.

The fastest route form them is through the steepes but those steppes are controlled by Uzbeks, Kazakhs, and chagatai whoom Timur would have to subjugate first.

Not to mention he would also have to fight the Oirats and Mongols who were devout Buddhists before moving on china.

At the same time he has to deal with the Jallyalids in the west and unrest in his Persian provinces and has to also be on guard for aggressive actions by the golden horde and also has to keep watch of the indian subcontinent.

That is too much for one man to do. it took the Mongols under Kubhlai 50+ years to conquer just the Southern Song that was collapsing and that too with a much closer base from which to launch their campaigns and far more resources than Timurs empire. I dont see how Timur can accomplish the same feat within a couple years. He was old at this point as it is.

Unfortunatly a timurid conquest of china is impossible because of Logistics, Space and Time. Now if you had a stable Timurid state that did not collapse and had strong Khans succeeding timur who continued to wage war on the ming than I can see the Ming being beatean. But once again was this not the era of Zheng He and the apogee of Ming power and influence in the east?

Due to all these reasons Timur will not be able to conquer china which is asb, but his succosers might and that too as a stretch provided they are as brilliant in warfare as he was and were somehow able to maintain the fragile Timurid state that unraveled the moment Timur died.

In terms of religion the timurids were not tolerant mongols. Have you read about the Persian and Indian campaign the massacres and slaughters were mostly done by Timurid forces on minorities, Shias, hindus, and christians who were the main focus of butchering. For example during the sack of delhi timur spared the muslim quarter but had the rest of the city looted. Now in china if he tries similiar policies and attacks the confusian-taoist-buddhist state than he will be opposed by all of china. The mongols at least showed religious toleration something the Timurids would not for Timur conquests were for the most part driven by religious fervor. hell he only attacked the ottomans cause they pissed him off and prior to his attack he had sent letters congratulating the Turks for wining battles against the Heathens in the west.

This is defiantly interesting.

I have always been interested in the results of Timur living longer, not only on China but elsewhere. As you included in the TL, Timur had planned to invade Egypt and never got around to it. Maybe one of his lieutenants could take up the task. The Ottoman Empire also is on shake ground after Ankara and might collapse if pushed enough.

Just so you know, Tamerlane was not exactly what you would call a pious Muslim - only nominally so. Therefore I doubt that if conquered China would become more Muslim directly. Besides there's got to be more Buddhism/Taoism in the world...

Grouchio said:

Just so you know, Tamerlane was not exactly what you would call a pious Muslim - only nominally so. Therefore I doubt that if conquered China would become more Muslim directly. Besides there's got to be more Buddhism/Taoism in the world...

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he may not be a pious muslim but his actions against christians and shias in persia and central asia and religious minorities in south asia paint a different picture. Also I dont see how timur can conquer china in ten years. Wasnt he like 80 by this point since he was born in 1320. The moment he dies in all probability the timurid state will unravel like our timeline due to its governmental structure, maybe it can be stabalized if someone competant succeeds timur.

And then Timur gets defeated and killed by Emperor Yongle.By all means,the Ming Dynasty is still in an invigorated state,not to mention led by one of it's best emperors who also happened to be a brilliant commander.

Conquering China when it's at its height without internal problem is basically impossible.

The western side of China is basically desert and mountains, in the north side at this time China has its walls, unlike Song.

In the end of Ming, when it has its civil war with the rebel in the capital and the administration is collapsing, it still takes a traitor to open the gate of the wall for Qing to conquer a failing Ming.

So just no. Timur can try but he will fail spectacularly.

I'm waiting to see how this goes. The premise sounds good, and if it's a thing that happens over several generations it's more than plausible ("Timur's dream" being a dream that is passed down). I think everyone should just wait and see where the OP takes this, as all that's been posted so far is a good intro.

Lets not be so pessemistic guys. Remember Timur was called east by the Northern Yuan and will almost certainly have their backup.

I highly doubt that'd he can conquer China in one go, but the combined force of his soldiers and the remaining Ghengisids (and maybe the Koreans and the Manchu if they can be bribed into intervening) might be enough to batter the Ming and give enough time for the Timurids to establish a power base in Northern China before moving south.

Soverihn said:

Lets not be so pessemistic guys. Remember Timur was called east by the Northern Yuan and will almost certainly have their backup.

I highly doubt that'd he can conquer China in one go, but the combined force of his soldiers and the remaining Ghengisids (and maybe the Koreans and the Manchu if they can be bribed into intervening) might be enough to batter the Ming and give enough time for the Timurids to establish a power base in Northern China before moving south.

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Highly doubt it.Timur and his folks we be facing the Yongle Emperor of all people,who was an excellent commander,on top of hundreds of thousands of Chinese soldiers.As for the Jurchens and the Koreans,they are currently under vassalage of the Ming,nor is there any coherent leadership amongst the Jurchens.

Timur defeated the Golden Horde, the Delhi Sultanate, the Jalayirids, the Mamelukes, Bayezid Yilderim of the Ottomans, and took Smyrna from the Knights in two weeks after 60 years of the Turks singularly failing to do so. Timur started with nothing and in 1404 the Timurid Empire stretched from eastern Turkey to Tashkent. Underestimating him is almost certainly fatal.

Also I didn't see anywhere where the OP said Timur personally conquered all of China. Even getting the ball rolling that his grandson finishes would be a huge achievement, making Timur the 14-15th century version of Genghis Khan.

Basileus444 said:

Yeah, the Chinese shouldn't have a problem with Timur. He's only defeated the Golden Horde, the Delhi Sultanate, the Jalayirids, the Mamelukes, Bayezid Yilderim of the Ottomans, and took Smyrna from the Knights in two weeks after 60 years of the Turks singularly failing to do so. Clearly he's not a military genius.

*End sarcasm*

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Yes,military geniuses are so great that they can achieve everything they try.Just look at how Napoleon conquered Russia!Look at how Alexander conquered the whole Indian subcontinent!And oh yes,I'm sure Emperor Yongle isn't a military genius either!

*End sarcasm*

darthfanta said:

Yes,military geniuses are so great that they can achieve everything they try.Just look at how Napoleon conquered Russia!Look at how Alexander conquered the whole Indian subcontinent!And oh yes,I'm sure Emperor Yongle isn't a military genius either!

*End sarcasm*

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My point was that Timur is a top-tier leader who has already demonstrated a clear ability to smash other excellent generals. Bayezid Yilderim was a powerful ruler and excellent general and Timur smashed him in a day. Not taking him seriously is a good way to die.

It's ironic that you bring up conquering Russia since Timur hamstrung the Golden Horde, the one state that did conquer Russia (discounting Rurik).

Hundreds of thousands of Chinese troops didn't help the Song, in the Middle Ages Central Asian horse archers were the most deadly troops on the planet, and logistics are less (although not nonexistent) of an issue for them.

darthfanta said:

Highly doubt it.Timur and his folks we be facing the Yongle Emperor of all people,who was an excellent commander,on top of hundreds of thousands of Chinese soldiers.As for the Jurchens and the Koreans,they are currently under vassalage of the Ming,nor is there any coherent leadership amongst the Jurchens.

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And if Zhu Di dies for whatever reason before he can consolidate control over his then powerful generals?

Basileus444 said:

My point was that Timur is a top-tier leader who has already demonstrated a clear ability to smash other excellent generals. Bayezid Yilderim was a powerful ruler and excellent general and Timur smashed him in a day. Not taking him seriously is a good way to die.

It's ironic that you bring up conquering Russia since Timur hamstrung the Golden Horde, the one state that did conquer Russia (discounting Rurik).

Hundreds of thousands of Chinese troops didn't help the Song, in the Middle Ages Central Asian horse archers were the most deadly troops on the planet, and logistics are less (although not nonexistent) of an issue for them.

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The Song Dynasty deliberately sabotaged their military leadership and organisation through a good number of measures.They also have limited cavalry of poor quality given most of China's horse producing regions were in the hands of invaders.

As for the Ming army,at this point,it's a military force that's well-trained and contained many Mongolian auxiliaries who are extremely loyal to Yongle.They were able to pommel the Mongol tribes into submission a good number of times.They also,at this point,have good cavalry unlike the Song.Besides that,the Ming army isn't the Ottoman army,it will outnumber whatever army Timur brings forth even if he brings whatever force he can muster(which I doubt he will bring his full force since a good part of his army would have to been left home to defend his empire) significantly.

Soverihn said:

And if Zhu Di dies for whatever reason before he can consolidate control over his then powerful generals?

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If China fragments,then that's a different matter altogether.

Timur probably can't conquer China in one go, but this isn't called "Timur Conquers China." It could well be his grandchildren or great-grandchildren or more to actually conquer China.

To the OP: Keep it up. This is really good and is definitely an original POD.

Soverihn said:

And if Zhu Di dies for whatever reason before he can consolidate control over his then powerful generals?

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Also if Timur keeps to his original timetable he will be attacking China just two years after he fought his way to becoming Yongle Emperor and before he has attacked Mongolia.

Basileus444 said:

Timur defeated the Golden Horde, the Delhi Sultanate, the Jalayirids, the Mamelukes, Bayezid Yilderim of the Ottomans, and took Smyrna from the Knights in two weeks after 60 years of the Turks singularly failing to do so. Timur started with nothing and in 1404 the Timurid Empire stretched from eastern Turkey to Tashkent. Underestimating him is almost certainly fatal.

Also I didn't see anywhere where the OP said Timur personally conquered all of China. Even getting the ball rolling that his grandson finishes would be a huge achievement, making Timur the 14-15th century version of Genghis Khan.

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Ming China is has a population in the range of the Golden Horde, Delhi Sultanate, Mamluks, and Ottomans put together. Its physical territory is 50% larger than Timur's empire at its height. It is literally the world's largest empire in 1405. In it, Smyrna is a rather small city. Delhi wouldn't be spectacularly impressive.

All of Timur's successes before he died were against smaller, weaker enemies, and now he's going up against an enemy that has a better ability to stop him. Since he's not likely to conquer China, his successor needs to be somewhat on the same level. In other words, to conquer China, Timur would need to be succeeded by another Timur.

Basileus444 said:

My point was that Timur is a top-tier leader who has already demonstrated a clear ability to smash other excellent generals. Bayezid Yilderim was a powerful ruler and excellent general and Timur smashed him in a day. Not taking him seriously is a good way to die.

It's ironic that you bring up conquering Russia since Timur hamstrung the Golden Horde, the one state that did conquer Russia (discounting Rurik).

Hundreds of thousands of Chinese troops didn't help the Song, in the Middle Ages Central Asian horse archers were the most deadly troops on the planet, and logistics are less (although not nonexistent) of an issue for them.

Click to expand...

Those hundreds of Chinese troops didn't save the Song in the long-run, but they kept Genghis Khan and the Mongols at bay for about fifty years. And that was when China didn't know how to effectively deal with Mongol troops. By 1405, Chinese troops were able to fight Mongols to a draw in Mongol home territory. In the event of an attack in Chinese territory, with terrain far more suited to the defenders, the Chinese will do better. It's not hard to imagine that in this situation, Timur would still win on the field, but there's a difference between being able to win in battle, and then conquering and holding the territory.

Why would Timur be able to be so much quicker than the Mongols? He's already old, and he's operating out of a base in Central Asia that's even more distant from the Chinese heartland than the Mongolian steppe was.

Basileus444 said:

Also if Timur keeps to his original timetable he will be attacking China just two years after he fought his way to becoming Yongle Emperor and before he has attacked Mongolia.

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How does this change anything? Two years coming to power, the Yongle Emperor was fairly secure in his power.