WI: Africa gets gunpowder earlier?

Sycamore

Banned
As it says in the title: how profound would the changes have been if gunpowder warfare had been introduced to the peoples of sub-Saharan Africa far earlier than it was IOTL- at roughly the same time that it was introduced to Europe (in the early to mid-13th century)? The POD I've got in mind would see the ruler of the Kingdom of Zimbabwe (which had the established trade links, abundant wealth and the levels of political organisation required to make this scenario perfectly plausible) deciding to adopt the use of gunpowder weaponry after witnessing a spectacular demonstration from a Chinese, Indian or Arab merchant. What kind of an impact might this potentially pivotal POD have had, both on the course of African history and on the history of the World?
 

Sycamore

Banned
No interest...?

Come on- isn't anyone even the slightest bit interested, or have any feedback whatsoever?
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
I'm not sure to be honest - instinct says that Zimbabwe would conquer the tribes that would eventually form Mutapa - and may well repel any Portuguese invasions. But the PoD would make all the difference, as Zimbabwe (AFAIK) was landlocked, and so needs to be able to get to the coast.

I would suggest another PoD that leads to Zimbabwe building a stable polity to exert influence over the region, and dominate trade with China - perhaps importing scholars and knowledge to introduce them to gunpowder. Perhaps becoming the far end of a the tribute system?

Oddly enough the dates of the end of OTL Zimbabwe and the journeys of Zheng He match - perhaps have a great Zimbabwean King emerge in the 1330's, expand Zimbabwe along the coast so that when Zheng He goes to Mombasa he learns about Zimbabwe, visits, is impressed by the work of the "Great King of Zimbabwe" and his two heirs, and establishes trade, and acts as an impetus to have China maintain the treasure fleets, or at the very least maintain contact - bring in enough successful eunechs and scholars to Zimbabwe to bring across ideas - brings in gunpowder, and who knows what could happen. A S.African "China" would be cool.
 
I am a bit skeptical. Even if the African nations had gunpowder before the arrival of the colonizers form Europe or the slave-haulers from Dahomey, they would still need high-grade metallurgy skills to make the guns to go with it. Without that, the only difference would be that the Zulu warriors would now start their battles with a barrage of rockets fired in the enemies' general direction before moving in for close range spear fighting. But without guns, I think the availability of gunpowder would even help the colonizers and slavers as they would only have to bring along their superior rifles and replentish their stock of powder along the way.
 
Did Greater Zimbabwe have access to sufficient sulphur?
Would they have started with infantry arquebus?
Would they have need able to field sufficient guns to sink Portuguese invaders?
Did GB have access to sufficient iron to make siege cannons?
Would drive cannons have changed the shape of stone enclosures until they resembled Vaubin fortresses?
Which inland tribes would they conquer?
 
I am a bit skeptical. Even if the African nations had gunpowder before the arrival of the colonizers form Europe or the slave-haulers from Dahomey, they would still need high-grade metallurgy skills to make the guns to go with it. Without that, the only difference would be that the Zulu warriors would now start their battles with a barrage of rockets fired in the enemies' general direction before moving in for close range spear fighting. But without guns, I think the availability of gunpowder would even help the colonizers and slavers as they would only have to bring along their superior rifles and replentish their stock of powder along the way.

As am I.

The introduction of gunpowder didn't stave off the death of the native Americans.

Without a highyielding crop that would significantly boost the population demographics. Guns would make little difference if your enemy could simply overwhelm you with numbers.

Guns, Germs, and Steel
 
As am I.

The introduction of gunpowder didn't stave off the death of the native Americans.

Without a highyielding crop that would significantly boost the population demographics. Guns would make little difference if your enemy could simply overwhelm you with numbers.

I agree. Even with guns Africa is just too weak to compete with Europe at this time.

Although it would be interesting to see what kind of states emerge in the meantime.
 

Sycamore

Banned
I am a bit skeptical. Even if the African nations had gunpowder before the arrival of the colonizers form Europe or the slave-haulers from Dahomey, they would still need high-grade metallurgy skills to make the guns to go with it. Without that, the only difference would be that the Zulu warriors would now start their battles with a barrage of rockets fired in the enemies' general direction before moving in for close range spear fighting. But without guns, I think the availability of gunpowder would even help the colonizers and slavers as they would only have to bring along their superior rifles and replentish their stock of powder along the way.

Interesting obscure fact- this general region of Africa actually had the highest standards of metallurgy in the world at this time. The strength of the carbon-steel produced in the natural-draft furnaces of this region of Africa, from southern Tanzania down south to northern Zimbabwe (which were developed prior to the birth of Christ, and which were capable of generating temperatures of over 1800°C) would be unsurpassed anywhere else until the Industrial Era. So, did they have the high-grade metallurgy skills required? Undoubtedly- they were better prepared in this regard than any other region in the world.
 
I'm interested in what the Swahili civilization would do with gunpowder and it's weapons. Would they become more militaristic and integrate it into their ships? But IIRC, the Swahili were fairly pacifist so they might just use it for ceremonies and fireworks. But if they go down the more violent path, the Portuguese might find a nasty surprise waiting for them in East Africa. From there, the Swahili could adopt the Portuguese Caravel and have longer direct trade routes?
 
Maybe Muslim countries like Songhai or Mali could learn how to make guns or trade for them. They seemed much more technologically advanced than Sub-Saharan cultures at the time.
 
As am I.

The introduction of gunpowder didn't stave off the death of the native Americans.

Without a highyielding crop that would significantly boost the population demographics. Guns would make little difference if your enemy could simply overwhelm you with numbers.

Guns, Germs, and Steel

Mail had the demographics to match Europe nearly on its own. They are the most remote from China, but did go on Hajj. Maybe some could go further?
 

Sycamore

Banned
As am I.

The introduction of gunpowder didn't stave off the death of the native Americans.

Without a highyielding crop that would significantly boost the population demographics. Guns would make little difference if your enemy could simply overwhelm you with numbers.

Guns, Germs, and Steel

As for high yielding crops- what's wrong with millet and sorghum? These had been the traditional grain crops on the Zimbabwean plateau for nearly 2000 years prior to the advent of colonialism. Accounts of early European travelers echoed the fact that the plateau settlers grew a variety of food crops. In 1893, the first European settlers in the eastern part of the plateau observed the existence of an extensive, productive, and prosperous African population in this area. Because of the food security they gave to the people, traditional grain crops were cultivated throughout the plateau.

Millet and sorghum were ground into mealie-meal, which was prepared into some thick paste called sadza (which formed the main dish of the Shona, and remained the main dish up to today). Sadza is often eaten as porridge. The floor from the grains was also made into cakes or unleavened bread. Millet and sorghum were both rich in carbohydrates and also contained the ingredients of a balanced diet. Traditional grain crops also served the Shona communities in many other ways. Bulrush millet and sorghum were peeled and cooked like rice; both varieties of millet and sorghum were used to prepare traditional beer (which played a very important role in Shona society).

The grain was abundant enough to often be used for barter trading, especially during times of serious drought and famine. Some sweet sorghum reeds were chewed like sugarcane, and so sorghum served a dual purpose. Sorghum and bulrush millet gains were used as chicken feed, while the stalks were used as animal feed. Stalks were often used as building, bedding, and fencing material. In particular, the stalks were also used to build granaries to store the variety of the grain crops harvested. The stalks could also be turned into manure by way of compost.

They already had the best steel by far (even if they lacked some of the steel-related tech which would become important IOTL- for instance, the African ironworkers apparently never developed the techniques to harden their steel by quenching and tempering, or to manufacture composite tools which combined a hard steel cutting edge with a soft but tough iron body. In this regard, it would appear that their early advantage eventually became a disadvantage IOTL- they could already produce the strongest carbon-steel in the world, and had been able to since before the birth of Christ. So there was no real impetus to take risks and attempt to improve the strength of their steel further through innovation. At least, not IOTL- ITTL, once the introduction of gunpowder starts to necessitate the development of stronger armor and stronger guns, it may well be a very different story). The POD would provide the potential for guns to be developed.

As for germs- well, you're having a laugh. If anything, the Africans would wipe out the Europeans with their (far more lethal and virulent ITTL, with Sub-Saharan Africa's population virtually guaranteed to be larger and more urbanized) epidemics when they eventually make contact. The epidemics of the Columbian exchange were so one-sided because of the massive disparity between the population bases and genetic bases of the Americas and the Old World. But first, Africa, even Sub-Saharan Africa, is still a part of the Old World- second, its genetic base, especially that of Sub-Saharan Africa, is effectively larger and more diverse than that of the rest of the world put together. That Black Death, which killed off somewhere between 30% to 60% of Europe's population? Modern analysts of archaeological evidence from sub-Saharan Africa seems to prove conclusively that the Black Death did indeed cross the Sahara and roll across the Sahel into sub-Saharan Africa, at exactly the same time that it rolled across Europe. It clearly took its toll, with records from Ethiopia of "no-one being left alive to bury the dead", and several previously prominent Ghanaian villages abandoned permanently after the epidemics. In the Senegambia region, the previously elaborate funeral practice of erecting megalithic circle would be abandoned entirely, because the surge in deaths from the Black Death made them unsustainable.

Overall though, the Black Death took a far smaller death toll in sub-Saharan Africa than it did anywhere else, and it was barely documented, because for them, it wasn't a big deal- plagues with those levels of mortality were, and are, pretty run-of-the-mill by African standards. Practices were already in place to mitigate the spread of these sorts of epidemics. Geneticists who compared the strain of the pathogen that caused the Black Death to those strains of plague still alive in the world today, made the finding that the closest strain genetically is in sub-Saharan Africa; the only way to explain that is to draw the conclusion that this strain got to Africa at around the same time the Black Death got to Europe.
 
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Interesting obscure fact- this general region of Africa actually had the highest standards of metallurgy in the world at this time. The strength of the carbon-steel produced in the natural-draft furnaces of this region of Africa, from southern Tanzania down south to northern Zimbabwe (which were developed prior to the birth of Christ, and which were capable of generating temperatures of over 1800°C) would be unsurpassed anywhere else until the Industrial Era. So, did they have the high-grade metallurgy skills required? Undoubtedly- they were better prepared in this regard than any other region in the world.

I don't know if this is true but before Christ, Indians had furnaces hot enough to create crucible steel, the Chinese had blast furnaces that could make cast iron. Cast iron would be important to casting a cannon and artillery.

I don't know enough about African metallurgy at the time to tell if you're wrong or right, but labor would be paramount, alongside technology and access to resources like coal, to set up the sort of workshops where ordnance could be manufactured. Failing that, they could still cast artillery out of Bronze, but that requires adequate tin supplies.

Guns, arquebuses, handgonnes, all can be manufactured much easier than artillery, of course. If the requisite tech (matchlock etc.) is acquired, the impetus is then on local statesmen and such to develop military tactics around the incursion of gunpowder warfare, adapt, build up the infrastructure to produce gunpowder, set up supply lines, and so on.

Aside from guns and artillery, grenades and bombs could also be made, and possibly put to some good tactical use.

Gunpowder production would rely on sources of potassium nitrate primarily. If those aren't available in mineral deposits, you would need a consistent source of urine and feces (read: livestock) to manufacture this on any significant scale.

Where the know-how for all this would come from, is also something that eludes me.
 

Sycamore

Banned
I'm not sure to be honest - instinct says that Zimbabwe would conquer the tribes that would eventually form Mutapa - and may well repel any Portuguese invasions. But the PoD would make all the difference, as Zimbabwe (AFAIK) was landlocked, and so needs to be able to get to the coast.

I would suggest another PoD that leads to Zimbabwe building a stable polity to exert influence over the region, and dominate trade with China - perhaps importing scholars and knowledge to introduce them to gunpowder. Perhaps becoming the far end of a the tribute system?

Oddly enough the dates of the end of OTL Zimbabwe and the journeys of Zheng He match - perhaps have a great Zimbabwean King emerge in the 1330's, expand Zimbabwe along the coast so that when Zheng He goes to Mombasa he learns about Zimbabwe, visits, is impressed by the work of the "Great King of Zimbabwe" and his two heirs, and establishes trade, and acts as an impetus to have China maintain the treasure fleets, or at the very least maintain contact - bring in enough successful eunechs and scholars to Zimbabwe to bring across ideas - brings in gunpowder, and who knows what could happen. A S.African "China" would be cool.

Going back to this point- the Mwenemutapa Kingdom did actually have an established seaport of its own IOTL, Sofala (which had been founded all the way back in 700CE, and also served as the primary trade post of the Kingdom of Zimbabwe). True, this was nominally under the jursidiction of the Kilwa Sultanate; but it was still formally a possession of the Kingdom of Mutapa later on IOTL, with the Sultans of Kilwa having to pay tribute for the right to settle and trade from this post. So it's definitely not that much of a stretch for Zheng He to travel on from Mombasa to visit Sofala; following the most valuable trade goods from Mombasa, gold and ivory, back to their actual sources in the Kingdom of Zimbabwe and its tributaries (instead of going through the Swahili Arab traders, and getting these goods at marked-up prices). Or, of course, the Kilwa Sultanate could simply adopt the use of gunpowder and introduce gunpowder warfare to sub-Saharan Africa themselves (with either the Kingdom of Zimbabwe and its contemporaries learning about gunpowder warfare the hard way, as the first in line to be on the receiving end). And maybe even Australia, while they're at it...
 
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As am I.

The introduction of gunpowder didn't stave off the death of the native Americans.

Without a highyielding crop that would significantly boost the population demographics. Guns would make little difference if your enemy could simply overwhelm you with numbers.

Guns, Germs, and Steel

You realize that most battle of the colonial era in Africa, the European "armies" (not bigger than battalion most of the time) were in numerical inferiority ? The European nations had a lot of difficulties operating large number of troops in Africa due to it's remoteness (especially inland) and it's harsh terrain.

Also, a fun fact : up until the late 1860s, the European soldier didn't have a lot of advantages in term of firepower. Arab troops usually had a better range with their Jezail and bows were still deadly. It was with the breech-loaded guns that the European armies acquired a superior firepower. Their advantage before that were in terms of discipline and maneuver, not in technology. To schematize, the European armies had soldiers, while the african armies had warriors.

So imho an earlier introduction of gunpowder in Africa could change things, but it would also require a little bit of nation-building to build the matching professional armies of the Europeans of the time which were their true advantage. Maybe an earlier introduction of gunpowder could jump start nation building, but i'm not so sure. Maybe a ruler in southeast Africa convert to Islam after being introduced to firearm by Muslim merchants to have better commercial relationship with them and he ends up creating a nation with an administration, large education system and a modern army to go with it ?
 
Well there is that one tribe in South Africa descended from Israeli/Hebrew groups that wandered south. Supposedly they brought the Arc or something with them, and based off their descriptions plus some interpretations of biblical passages at least one historian mused that maybe some ancient Hebrews stumbled across a sort of proto-gunpowder. Assuming that's true, maybe in an effort to rebuild the Arc they could use what they knew of the ingredients and stumble upon half decent gunpowder much earlier? Not totally sure that would work, but it seems semi-possible. Gunpowder is an easy enough thing to stumble across.
 
You realize that most battle of the colonial era in Africa, the European "armies" (not bigger than battalion most of the time) were in numerical inferiority ? The European nations had a lot of difficulties operating large number of troops in Africa due to it's remoteness (especially inland) and it's harsh terrain.

Also, a fun fact : up until the late 1860s, the European soldier didn't have a lot of advantages in term of firepower. Arab troops usually had a better range with their Jezail and bows were still deadly. It was with the breech-loaded guns that the European armies acquired a superior firepower. Their advantage before that were in terms of discipline and maneuver, not in technology. To schematize, the European armies had soldiers, while the african armies had warriors.

So imho an earlier introduction of gunpowder in Africa could change things, but it would also require a little bit of nation-building to build the matching professional armies of the Europeans of the time which were their true advantage. Maybe an earlier introduction of gunpowder could jump start nation building, but i'm not so sure. Maybe a ruler in southeast Africa convert to Islam after being introduced to firearm by Muslim merchants to have better commercial relationship with them and he ends up creating a nation with an administration, large education system and a modern army to go with it ?

Even with gunpowder and more advanced weapons Africa still has a host of problems in any conflict with Europe.

Number one being that Europe can project power into Africa while Africa can't do the same to Europe. This means that even when African forces can win battles against Europeans (as they did), the Europeans could regroup and return later, and it would mean that it was African lands that felt the destruction of war, not European. Eventually Africa would get ground down.

Second, Africa's population is much lower than Europe's (Africa's population essentially stagnated for 300 years) and its land area is much, much bigger, making communications difficult and making it more difficult to replace loses.

Third is the "triangle trade" that massively enriched Europe and gutted Africa.

All of this is to say, in terms of Africa and Europe, Africa is going to need a lot more than gunpowder to have a shot against the Europeans.
 
Number one being that Europe can project power into Africa while Africa can't do the same to Europe. This means that even when African forces can win battles against Europeans (as they did), the Europeans could regroup and return later, and it would mean that it was African lands that felt the destruction of war, not European. Eventually Africa would get ground down.

For a long time Greece could project into Italy and the Italians couldn't do the reverse. That didn't end in a Greek run Italy (at least not until after the Italian Greece). If somewhere is annoying to try to take people will just stop bothering.
 

Sycamore

Banned
Even with gunpowder and more advanced weapons Africa still has a host of problems in any conflict with Europe.

Number one being that Europe can project power into Africa while Africa can't do the same to Europe. This means that even when African forces can win battles against Europeans (as they did), the Europeans could regroup and return later, and it would mean that it was African lands that felt the destruction of war, not European. Eventually Africa would get ground down.

Second, Africa's population is much lower than Europe's (Africa's population essentially stagnated for 300 years) and its land area is much, much bigger, making communications difficult and making it more difficult to replace loses.

Third is the "triangle trade" that massively enriched Europe and gutted Africa.

All of this is to say, in terms of Africa and Europe, Africa is going to need a lot more than gunpowder to have a shot against the Europeans.

For a population comparison- between 1300 and 1500, the total population of the Bantu peoples of Africa is estimated to have increased from 21 to 30 million people. Over that same period of time, the total population of Western Europe (France, Spain, Portugal and the British Isles combined) is only estimated to have increased from 25 to 28 million people. The 'effectively stagnated' population of Sub-Saharan Africa (or, rather, of this specific group of sub-Saharan Africans alone) overtook the entire population of Western Europe over the course of these centuries, IOTL. And you can't just use the Black Death as an excuse for Europe's relative stagnation either, because genetic analysis of the Black Death pathogen strain proves that the plague epidemics of the Black Death reached both Sub-Saharan Africa and Europe nigh-on simultaneously. If they're relatively equally matched with the Europeans, with regards to their military technology, then the Europeans' unsupportable logistics train would doom their early colonial ventures to defeat. The Europeans would need the equivalent of the Spanish Armada to have a shot against the Africans in such a scenario- and good luck sailing that kind of massive armada all the way around the Cape to South-East Africa. It'd be a total suicide mission- even if 'King Solomon's Mines' provide enough incentive for a European nation to hazard the expedition, they'd need to rely on a technological disparity akin to that between isolationist Japan and the 1850's USA before they stand a chance of anything other than abject failure and bankruptcy...
 
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For a population comparison- between 1300 and 1500, the total population of the Bantu peoples of Africa is estimated to have increased from 21 to 30 million people. Over that same period of time, the total population of Western Europe (France, Spain, Portugal and the British Isles combined) is only estimated to have increased from 25 to 28 million people. The 'effectively stagnated' population of Sub-Saharan Africa (or, rather, of this specific group of sub-Saharan Africans alone) overtook the entire population of Western Europe over the course of these centuries, IOTL. And you can't just use the Black Death as an excuse for Europe's relative stagnation either, because genetic analysis of the Black Death pathogen strain proves that the plague epidemics of the Black Death reached both Sub-Saharan Africa and Europe nigh-on simultaneously.

I'm looking at 1600-1900, here.

I don't see how gunpowder can reverse that, but maybe it could.
 
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