As the tin says, what sort of effect might there have been upon the New World in general if the peoples of the America's had been able to develop metallurgy at an earlier point then some of them did?
New World picks up Metalurgy earlier?
- Thread starter Kayin Dreemurr
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Emperor RyRy
Banned
Depends on where, the Andeans had metallurgy incredibly early compared to most of the continent, as did the Mesoamericans, although later. How do you think the Spaniards actually knew there was gold, the natives had gold masks and hats and idols and what-have-you.
Consider how and where this may have occurred (considering availability of suitable ore deposits) and the world is your oyster! If true metallurgy developed in the New World at the same time the early civilizations were rising in MesoAmerica and Peru, the future evolution of societies and cultures in the New World might differ completely from OTL In fact, if you want, you might have Mexican Eagle Knights armed in chainmail storming ashore with crossbows and steel swords in Spain in 1492.
Working with gold, silver, and copper in Pre-Colombian America was far more widespread than is commonly considered. In the Andes in particular had metalwork traditions going back 3,000 years by the time of contact. Central America independently developed metalworking as early as 300 CE, and by 800 CE it was established in Mesoamerica. In North America, both around the Great Lakes and in Alaska, there were independent metal cultures which worked native copper, but did not develop smelting.
While the North American cultures used copper tools for utilitarian purposes, this wasn't the case in Mesoamerica and the Andes, where metalworking was seen as mainly a way to make adornments and other decorative objects. This had begun to change among the Inca at the time of contact, but even then, bronze was more expensive than native stone, and made no better tools, so it had not become common.
As for what would happen if the Americas entered the Iron Ages - not much, IMHO. The Americas fared so poorly upon contact not due to lack of military might, but because the majority (and possibly over 90%) of the population took sick with plagues soon after contact. Better weapons would not have been able to erase this disadvantage.
While the North American cultures used copper tools for utilitarian purposes, this wasn't the case in Mesoamerica and the Andes, where metalworking was seen as mainly a way to make adornments and other decorative objects. This had begun to change among the Inca at the time of contact, but even then, bronze was more expensive than native stone, and made no better tools, so it had not become common.
As for what would happen if the Americas entered the Iron Ages - not much, IMHO. The Americas fared so poorly upon contact not due to lack of military might, but because the majority (and possibly over 90%) of the population took sick with plagues soon after contact. Better weapons would not have been able to erase this disadvantage.
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Driftless
Donor
Other than native gold(nuggets, etc), what metals and when? How would the metallurgic development process have worked differently than OTL?
Native copper once existed in large nuggets or chunks (still does in very small quantities) in the Upper Pennisula of Michigan, so with the right "nudge", that could have served as useful starting point.
Bog iron exists in a number of locations in the Americas.
But what POD gets the idea in some innovators head that this raw material can be worked into something more useful?
Native copper once existed in large nuggets or chunks (still does in very small quantities) in the Upper Pennisula of Michigan, so with the right "nudge", that could have served as useful starting point.
Bog iron exists in a number of locations in the Americas.
But what POD gets the idea in some innovators head that this raw material can be worked into something more useful?
Sir Chaos
Banned
Speaking of bog iron... the Norse used bog iron extensively, and they had a presence in and around Newfoundland ("Vinland") for some time from 1,000 AD or so.
What if the Norse had stayed in Vinland for a longer time, and somehow the knowledge of bog iron and how to use it spread to the natives - and from there, across the Americas?
How far could this knowledge have spread by the time the Spanish arrived?
Driftless
Donor
Given the one known location of Viking era setters in Newfoundland, there should be reasonable avenues for trading along the eastern seabord of North America and up the St Lawrence Valley into the Great Lakes. Both the Norse and the natives had pretty good coastal & riverine boats that would have aided such a venture.
The other peice to consider is the impact of disease (as noted above) on this whole situation.
I'm no expert on disease....
We've had the discussion of an extended Vinland settlement and it's role in the spread of disease and what I take as the common thread is that for a number of reasons, you are less likely to see the spread of things like small pox via the Vinlanders.
One assumption is that metallurgy give the natives better weapons. When other later visitors (Spanish, Portugese, English, et al) come in larger numbers, can those improved weapons help keep the visitors at the shoreline for a longer time, does that delay the contagions that spread through the Americas? Or doesn't that impact the spread of disease at all?
Sir Chaos
Banned
Bog iron is inferior to the steel the Europeans use in 1500-ish, both in quality and in that it is much harder to acquire. Iron tools and weapons were EXPENSIVE for the Norse.
I´d assume that, if bog iron production and ironworking spreads through the Americas, the skill to produce armor does not - the Norse did use mail shirt, but those were rare, and even if some Norse in Vinland might have had some, they probably would not have been produced locally in small colonies.
So, while we would see iron tools and weapons (though even swords were out of financial reach for most Norse), we would not see anything resembling European heavy armor in the Americas. I think some of the more advanced cultures, like the Aztecs, Inca, perhaps the Maya or Cahokia, would eventually independently develop something resembling scale or lamellar armor, which no doubt would be worn primarly by nobles, or royal bodyguards and other elite troops.
So, in summary, I think we could expect the native civilizations to field troops that would be more or less a match (in equipment, if perhaps not in motivation or tactics) to Viking age Norse; they´d be inferior to Conquistadores in 1500-ish era armor, with cavalry and gunpowder, but not nearly as much as in OTL, and not enough to allow ludicrously outnumbered Spanish conquistadores to achieve so much in such a short time.
Another factor to consider is - what if the Norse also (intentionally or not) introduced their domesticated animals to the Americas?
For one thing, that would allow for higher population densities. That would, among other things, indirectly counteract the effect of European diseases, because a 90% death toll from among a larger population still leaves a lot more people alive than a 90% death toll from among a smaller population.
For another, while it would not help the natives build up immunity to European diseases, spending several centuries in close contact with livestock just might lead to the native civilizations developing their own witches´ brew of diseases, to which the Europeans have no immunity - so what if Eurasia is hit by disease as hard as the Americas are?
I´d assume that, if bog iron production and ironworking spreads through the Americas, the skill to produce armor does not - the Norse did use mail shirt, but those were rare, and even if some Norse in Vinland might have had some, they probably would not have been produced locally in small colonies.
So, while we would see iron tools and weapons (though even swords were out of financial reach for most Norse), we would not see anything resembling European heavy armor in the Americas. I think some of the more advanced cultures, like the Aztecs, Inca, perhaps the Maya or Cahokia, would eventually independently develop something resembling scale or lamellar armor, which no doubt would be worn primarly by nobles, or royal bodyguards and other elite troops.
So, in summary, I think we could expect the native civilizations to field troops that would be more or less a match (in equipment, if perhaps not in motivation or tactics) to Viking age Norse; they´d be inferior to Conquistadores in 1500-ish era armor, with cavalry and gunpowder, but not nearly as much as in OTL, and not enough to allow ludicrously outnumbered Spanish conquistadores to achieve so much in such a short time.
Another factor to consider is - what if the Norse also (intentionally or not) introduced their domesticated animals to the Americas?
For one thing, that would allow for higher population densities. That would, among other things, indirectly counteract the effect of European diseases, because a 90% death toll from among a larger population still leaves a lot more people alive than a 90% death toll from among a smaller population.
For another, while it would not help the natives build up immunity to European diseases, spending several centuries in close contact with livestock just might lead to the native civilizations developing their own witches´ brew of diseases, to which the Europeans have no immunity - so what if Eurasia is hit by disease as hard as the Americas are?
If Viking introduced European domestic animals and diseases to NA circa 1000 AD native NA would have had 500 years to develop immunities and re-populate the Americas before Columbus arrived.
Circa 1500, Spanish ettlers would have to displace many million more Indians.
Furthermore, what limited Viking blacksmiths from making chain-mail armour in Vinland?
They start with the same bog iron, extrude it into wire, cut that wore into short segments, bend links, rivet the ends together, repeat. Sure chain-mail is labour-intensive ... but if it gives you an advantage against skraelings .... start hammering!
Circa 1500, Spanish ettlers would have to displace many million more Indians.
Furthermore, what limited Viking blacksmiths from making chain-mail armour in Vinland?
They start with the same bog iron, extrude it into wire, cut that wore into short segments, bend links, rivet the ends together, repeat. Sure chain-mail is labour-intensive ... but if it gives you an advantage against skraelings .... start hammering!
Driftless
Donor
Even simpler to make than chain mail, and more everyday useful - iron tools such as: knife blades, arrowheads, hoes, axes, mattocks, etc. Those tools could make hunting and farming more productive, which has the secondary impact of aiding population growth & wealth accumulation.
Circling back to my native copper suggestion; simple copper tools with limited durability would still be an improvement over stone, bone, and wood for some applications. Copper scrapers/knives & arrowheads could be quite sharp and durable enough for some purposes. Axes, Adzes, Hoes, not so much..
Sir Chaos
Banned
The Norse already had a huge advantage over the skraelings with few or no mail shirts. With the very limited supply of labour in Vinland and the many things that needed doing, plus the relative scarcity of bog iron and the many things it was needed for, I strongly doubt that producing mail shirts in quantity was even possible - and it certainly would not have provided sufficient additional bang for the buck to justify diverting that much labour and iron.
Mail shirts were incredibly rare even in the relatively densely populated Scandinavia; Greenland had maybe 5,000 people at its peak, and the Vinland settlements, unless massively supported from Europe (which is an entirely different story) would probably not rise above a few hundred people at most. Given the lack of demand for armor in Greenland, limited iron supply and limited labour supply, I would not be surprised if not a single mail shirt was ever produced on Greenland.
There is also the consideration that, even if the Norse produced mail shirts, that skill would be the most complex application of ironworking, and thus the one least likely to be picked up by the natives, and the least likely to be independently discovered by natives even if they got some sample mail to study.
Mail is not particularly expensive, and is the most widespread sort of armor across Eurasia and parts of Africa for most of history. There are many different techniques to making them. For example, the Japanese already had many different sorts of mail armor.
But I think if iron metallurgy was widespread then there are other things to consider and focus on. I am assuming that native groups can learn to create wrought iron using blooms, but it would take time to create complex arms and armor and better steel. I don't expect that the native americans will come across crucible steel or any sort of steel better than Spanish steel at the time of contact.
But I think if iron metallurgy was widespread then there are other things to consider and focus on. I am assuming that native groups can learn to create wrought iron using blooms, but it would take time to create complex arms and armor and better steel. I don't expect that the native americans will come across crucible steel or any sort of steel better than Spanish steel at the time of contact.
We've had those diseases in the Old World for tens of thousands of years. Still no immunity. Absorb the Norse population into the Natives, and you might see some increased resistance.
Not major, but going from 90 % death rates to 80 would be a 100 % increase in survival,
Not enough time. Major diseases didn't pop up that often. Also, the natives wouldn't have time to get their own resistance up.
Stuff the Norse had, that the Natives could have used though: Best seafaring package in the world with great fishing. Cattle, draft animals, horse cavalry and the stirrup, good crop package, sheep, the collar, metalurgy for tools and weapons, etc.
All gamechangers.
Tools and arms wouldn't actually be made from bog iron, but from steel made from bog iron. And even then, I doubt native cultures would rely on that, but probably learn to make wrought iron in blooms and then carburize that into steel. Their steel would at first not be of good enough quality for swords, or long swords at least. To what extent it develops over the centuries until Spanish contact is hard to guess, but would most probably not be as good as Spanish / Toledo steel.
Mail was not expensive in Europe, and most other parts of Eurasia despite the painstaking production, evidence by it's commonality after a certain point in or after antiquity. Scale is not a possibility, historical "scalemail" was very rare and always insignificant compared to mail and lamellar. There's not much reason to think that armor would be that expensive as to be restricted to a privileged few. Maybe that's be the case at first, but eventually steel production would increase enough to make it cheaper (depends on ore deposits and access to coal.)
Sir Chaos
Banned
Mail was expensive, and rare, for the Norse during the time of their Vinland expeditions. That is the important part - what was the case elsewhere, or in other times, doesn´t matter.
I don't see much reason to believe that it was, mail was available widely across Europe even before Viking era. Infantry of various Germanic groups, Franks, and all else, had maille armor commonly. Of course, it was available even before the dark ages, preferred armor of Legionaries. I'm not seeing much direct evidence for the exception of rarity in Scandinavia particularly.
There is reputable historic documentation that the Tlingit managed to rework iron and steel (along with repair firearms!) within only a few decades of contact with westerners. Thus I have little doubt that iron/steel metallurgy could have been integrated into any native culture which had at least a modest understanding of how to work copper.
