Football / Soccer World Cup with many German countries

[Max Sinister]

Just had to think about it: Great Britain starts with four teams in the World Cup - England, Scotland, Wales and North Ireland. Other countries don't.

However, Germany was divided for a long time, and I'm not talking about West and East. WI there were German teams for Bavaria, Saxony, the Rhineland and Swabia in the World Cup? How much would football / soccer change?

[Kabraloth]

Honestly, I think the German teams would sink, simply because they would not have that many good players as a unified German team has.

[Tyr]

How would this come about though?
I doubt the Germans would willingly field a sub-standard team, and the honour of being Germany rather then Saxony would be great.
The only reason the UK has 4 teams is we invented the game and were playing internationals against each other before anyone else had a clue about it. In doing so we set a precedent amongst ourselves no one was willing to change by the time everyone else started playing to a decent levle.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Max Sinister

Just had to think about it: Great Britain starts with four teams in the World Cup - England, Scotland, Wales and North Ireland. Other countries don't.

However, Germany was divided for a long time, and I'm not talking about West and East. WI there were German teams for Bavaria, Saxony, the Rhineland and Swabia in the World Cup? How much would football / soccer change?

That's because Britain is not a proper country but a political union of four separate countries.

It would be easier to have separate teams for Spain or France than Germany. I think to get several countries playing as Germany, you'd have to have a much more intense rivalry between the various parts of Germany. I also think you'd have to have unification a couple of decades later so that the separate football associations already existed when Germany was united. (Perhaps the catalyst for reunification was not the Franco Prussian War but an early World War 1 with Prussia among the victorious allies and Austria among the losers.

Once this happens, I can imagine, say HSH (Hamburg), Bavaria, Lohringen, Lower and Upper Saxony, Brandenburg, Prussia and Silesia all German and all having their own football teams. Hamburg would constantly struggle to maintain a good team, although it's club team (HSV), no doubt playing in the Dutch League, might be extremely successful. Prussia and Bavaria might have world-class teams with Lower Saxony a very good European team. I imagine the others might struggle although, everyone would STILL remember the one time Silesia played Bavaria in the World Cup and against all the odds, thrashed them 6-0.

[oberdada]

I am all for Bavaria as an independent FIFI member.

We wouldn't have to cope with Beckenbauer then ...

[Saladin]

The cause of Great Britain having four teams is a combination of the whole concept of *United* Kingdms, *and* the fact that England codified football in the first place. The codification by the Football Association in 1859 envisaged the game being played throughout the British Isles and therefore recognised the four national entities of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland.

Later, other politiical entities that are part of greater nations also joined FIFA in their own right. The Ukraine from 1920 to 1939 is one, as is Puerto Rico at present, so there would be precedent for, say, Bavaria, Saxony etc becoming independent FIFA members -- having said that, FIFA would block the possibility from happening

[Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

That's because Britain is not a proper country but a political union of four separate countries.

It would be easier to have separate teams for Spain or France than Germany.

Hmm...Germany is a federal republic made up of a number of Bundesländer, each with more and deeper granted rights, incl. recent tradition for independence, than the parts making up the UK of GB and NI. France and Spain are not federal or anything like it, and at least France have very little decentralisation (don't know much about Spain).

I guess the British got four entries because they could back when this was decided (when UK was THE global power), and because there already were football associations in E, S, W and NI.

To have a similar development in Germany I guess we need football becomming popular earlier and/or the unification later. Or we could just have Germany win great in WWI and dictate also how football is to be organised.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

[EvolvedSaurian]

Spain could be divided up historically/linguistically with Galacia, Castile and Aragon.

France into Gascony, Brittany, Savoy etc.

Italy, I am unsure about. Maybe along pre-unification lines?

The US, I've discussed before.

Not exactly on topic but close enough.

[oberdada]

In "Die Mauer steht am Rhein", an AH novel from Dittfurth, in which East Germany takes over West Germany, the football leagues are not united.
There is nothing about different FIFA teams, but that is not impossible.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Redbeard

To have a similar development in Germany I guess we need football becomming popular earlier and/or the unification later. Or we could just have Germany win great in WWI and dictate also how football is to be organised.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

I think the opposite would probably be more likely. Germany heavily defeated and, to prevent a revival of a united Germany it and probably also Prussia is broken up. Say independent states in Bavaria, Saxony, Hanover etc and possibly a Rhine republic.

Actually, in a way Germany does still have two teams as the Austrians have a separate team. [Presumably it didn't in 1938 after the Authluss?]

Steve

[Gustav Anderman]

Originally Posted by stevep

I

Actually, in a way Germany does still have two teams as the Austrians have a separate team. [Presumably it didn't in 1938 after the Authluss?]

Steve

I don´t for sure but 1941 the team of "rapid wien" won the german championship.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Gustav Anderman

I don´t for sure but 1941 the team of "rapid wien" won the german championship.

There was a German championship in 41. Interesting.

Steve

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by EvolvedSaurian

Spain could be divided up historically/linguistically with Galacia, Castile and Aragon.

It makes more sense to divide Spain on national lines, with Euzkadi and Catalunya as separate nations. Catalunya have played occasional friendlies and with the power of Barcelona, could be a force to be reckoned with (they have Carles Puyol and Cesc Fabregas in the current national team.

Euzkadi haven't, as far as I know, played as Euzkadi but Athletic Bilbao in the Spanish First Division and Eibar in the second BOTH have rules insisting that all their players are Basques, so in a way Athletic Bilbao could be seen as a national team for Euzkadi.

Galacia's another possibility as you say but I suspect many Galacians would rather play for Portugal or Spain than for a "national" team. (Mainly because there are few major teams in the area.)

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gustav Anderman

I don´t for sure but 1941 the team of "rapid wien" won the german championship.

A team from Prague won the German cup once as well.

[Saladin]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Euzkadi haven't, as far as I know, played as Euzkadi but Athletic Bilbao in the Spanish First Division and Eibar in the second BOTH have rules insisting that all their players are Basques, so in a way Athletic Bilbao could be seen as a national team for Euzkadi.

The Euzkadi/Basque are far more focused on Rugby Union for saome kind of reason best known to themselves. The majority of the French national RU team is usually Basque

[Fabilius]

I can see Spain fielding three teams: Catalonia, Espagne and Basque.
I could envision Canada fielding two teams: Quebeck and ...
I could imagine Belgium with two teams: The flamish and the french.