Anglo-German Alliance

Glen

Moderator
In 1901, three heads of state would die, one of advanced old age, the other two by an assassin's bullet.

On January 22, 1901, Queen Victoria died. At her bedside for much of the end of her life was her devouted grandson, Kaiser Wilhelm II of the German Empire. Many British citizens were touched by this display of filial affection from the Emperor of Germany.

And thus were doubly grieved, when less than two months later, on March 6, 1901, an assassin killed Kaiser Wilhelm II in Bremen.

Another assassin would strike at American president William McKinley, mortally wounding him on September 6, 1901, though he would not succumb until eight days later. Theodore Roosevelt would be sworn in as the President of the USA on September 14, 1901.

It was also in September, September 20, 1901, that the governments of Great Britain and Germany committed to an Anglo-German Alliance. Both new sovereigns were in favor of the proposal, one long proposed by Joseph Chamberlain, and capitalizing on the good will created by the shared tragedies of the year, it was made a reality.
 
What does McKinley's death have anything to tie in with these events?

Interesting though. Would Germany or the UK push for a personal union between the two (United Kingdom of Great Britain, Germany, and Ireland), or just closer ties?
 
Glen said:
In 1901, three heads of state would die, one of advanced old age, the other two by an assassin's bullet.

On January 22, 1901, Queen Victoria died. At her bedside for much of the end of her life was her devouted grandson, Kaiser Wilhelm II of the German Empire. Many British citizens were touched by this display of filial affection from the Emperor of Germany.

And thus were doubly grieved, when less than two months later, on March 6, 1901, an assassin killed Kaiser Wilhelm II in Bremen.

Another assassin would strike at American president William McKinley, mortally wounding him on September 6, 1901, though he would not succumb until eight days later. Theodore Roosevelt would be sworn in as the President of the USA on September 14, 1901.

It was also in September, September 20, 1901, that the governments of Great Britain and Germany committed to an Anglo-German Alliance. Both new sovereigns were in favor of the proposal, one long proposed by Joseph Chamberlain, and capitalizing on the good will created by the shared tragedies of the year, it was made a reality.

Wouldn't "Splendid Isolation", be a major obstacle in any European commitment ? , and would this affect the Anglo-Japanese Alliance treaty of 1902?
 

Glen

Moderator
WhatIsAUserName said:
What does McKinley's death have anything to tie in with these events?

Zeitgeist. Also establishes that there are only minimal butterflies in this timeline.

Interesting though. Would Germany or the UK push for a personal union between the two (United Kingdom of Great Britain, Germany, and Ireland), or just closer ties?

I think just closer ties. Prince Phillip had to give up his claim to the Greek throne to marry Elizabeth, IIRC.

On a different note....

I need an alternate to the von Schlieffen Plan, oh AH.com military historians. With the alliance with the British, and with an event I'm about to post, invading through neutral Belgium is a non-starter.

My proposal...a reverse von Schlieffen Plan. Knock out Russia first, then turn to face France.

I'm thinking a two pronged attack, with a joint German/British amphibious landing staging out of Danzig that goes for St. Petersberg, and a German land drive straight for the heart, Moscow. AH would probably demonstrate against Kiev, drawing off Russian forces.

The Germans would hold on the French line in defense, aiming to knock the Russians out in a political settlement before turning attentions to France. Here the British will threaten landings in Normandy, while the Germans attack out of A-L.

At least, that's my initial thoughts. I'd love some commentary, refinement, and if necessary, alternate plans.
 

Glen

Moderator
OperationGreen said:
Wouldn't "Splendid Isolation", be a major obstacle in any European commitment ? , and would this affect the Anglo-Japanese Alliance treaty of 1902?

Joseph Chamberlain was pushing for it in 1901 OTL, but a gaffe by Chamberlain in a speech nixed any plan. This is one time, with the recent good feelings towards the departed Wilhelm, where such a commitment would be possible.

Also recall that only a few years later, the British would break their 'splendid isolation' anyway by allying with the French and Russians. So that's going out the window in this era.

I think the Anglo-Japanese Alliance would go through normally, but I'm willing to hear thoughts on this.
 

Glen

Moderator
1902 was a good year for the new monarchs of Britain and Germany.

On January 12, 1902 Austria-Hungary formally joined the Anglo-German Alliance, which then formally was referred to as the Triple Alliance, though most continued to refer to it by its former name.

Then, on June 7, 1902, the British Empire, the German Empire, and King Leopold II of Belgium signed a treaty allowing for two Trans-Congo railways, one running North-South connecting British Africa, and one running East-West connecting German Africa. A consortium of British, German, and Belgian companies would construct the railways in Belgium. Freedom of passage was guaranteed for German and British trains, and they did not have to go through customs in Congo so long as they made no stops other then fueling while in the Congo. A side agreement between the British and Germans agreed to have a spur of the British railway in the South go to German Southwest Africa.

One trouble spot occurred later in the year when Venezuela tried to default on loans to the British and Germans, but a satisfactory agreement for repayment was reached with the Americans acting as neutral guarantors, mainly due to the mediation of the American President, Theodore Roosevelt.
 
This alliance utterly terrifies the French and the Russians. I think both nations would increase military budget immensely.

Italy-France-Russia would make an alliance, but the power balance (the popular theory of that time) would be broken.

But maybe this makes peace more viable. After all, Britain and Germany don´t get into a weapon race, and the British would hold back their allies and try compromise. (I sincerely can´t see any reason why the British would want to invade Russia.)
 
Japan might have doubts about allying with the Anglo-German Alliance, due to wanting German Micronesia (and the fact that China's going to be a German ally most likely)... But I have an idea to solve one of those at least. How about in the post-Spanish-American War peace, the US gains all of the Spanish possessions in the Pacific (including the ones they would sell to Germany next year)?

And then Australia might be angry too, they'll want German New Guinea and the Bismarck Archipelago...
 
luakel said:
Japan might have doubts about allying with the Anglo-German Alliance, due to wanting German Micronesia (and the fact that China's going to be a German ally most likely)... But I have an idea to solve one of those at least. How about in the post-Spanish-American War peace, the US gains all of the Spanish possessions in the Pacific (including the ones they would sell to Germany next year)?

And then Australia might be angry too, they'll want German New Guinea and the Bismarck Archipelago...

Isn't Japans main enemy Russia at this time, so if Japan joins this alliance we could see a war in 1905......, Japan could gain a lot of territory, i wonder how this may effect, china and maybe even a earlier Revolution in Russia.

The German army, the British and Japanese Fleets wow....
 

Glen

Moderator
luakel said:
Japan might have doubts about allying with the Anglo-German Alliance, due to wanting German Micronesia (and the fact that China's going to be a German ally most likely)... But I have an idea to solve one of those at least. How about in the post-Spanish-American War peace, the US gains all of the Spanish possessions in the Pacific (including the ones they would sell to Germany next year)?

And then Australia might be angry too, they'll want German New Guinea and the Bismarck Archipelago...

luakel, though comments and ideas are helpful, this will be a single author timeline.

I think you REALLY should write that timeline yourself! We'll help, honest!
 

Glen

Moderator
Fabilius said:
This alliance utterly terrifies the French and the Russians. I think both nations would increase military budget immensely.

I agree.

Italy-France-Russia would make an alliance, but the power balance (the popular theory of that time) would be broken.

Also, IIRC, Italy already has agreements in place with Germany and Austria-Hungary.

Of course, if a war breaks out, they may decide to change their minds...but I suspect they do the same sorts of calculations as OTL, and the British/German Alliance will look like a better hand.

Of course, I could be wrong.:rolleyes:

In fact, I'd like to know if people think it would be plausible for the Italians to decide before the fact to ally with France/Russia, without too much butterflies.

BTW, I do think that the French and Russians will be courting allies, and I'm pretty certain they'll get the Ottomans...

But maybe this makes peace more viable. After all, Britain and Germany don´t get into a weapon race, and the British would hold back their allies and try compromise. (I sincerely can´t see any reason why the British would want to invade Russia.)

True. However, there's a lot of tension in Europe still.

The problem with any pre-WWI divergences that are still close to the time of WWI is that it started in such an unpredictable manner anyway. So what would happen if you changed things really is difficult to guage.

People can always be 'safe' and go parallel, having the same events happen regardless of the preceding divergences, but that IMO is as implausible as anything else.

Anyway, I think I have an idea for this particular timeline...:rolleyes:
 

Glen

Moderator
OperationGreen said:
Isn't Japans main enemy Russia at this time, so if Japan joins this alliance we could see a war in 1905......, Japan could gain a lot of territory, i wonder how this may effect, china and maybe even a earlier Revolution in Russia.

The German army, the British and Japanese Fleets wow....

Hmmm...do people think that an actual World War would break out over this?

The Japanese were allied with the British OTL, yet the British didn't go to war with Russia OTL...of course, they were also allied with Russia by that time...

Hmmm...and there is always Dogger Banks, though that too is a low probability event...

What do people think, would the Germans and British go to war in 1905 if the Russo-Japanese war broke out as in OTL, but the British are only allied with the Japanese, not the Russians?

That actually might have some more possibilities than what I was thinking of going with...

So, in 1902, we probably should have the Anglo-Japanese Alliance include the Germans as well...maybe I'll just make it later than OTL due to the additional party in the negotiations and go with January 1903...so I don't have to do a re-write...was it early or late 1902 IOTL?
 
Glen said:
Hmmm...do people think that an actual World War would break out over this?

The Japanese were allied with the British OTL, yet the British didn't go to war with Russia OTL...of course, they were also allied with Russia by that time...

Hmmm...and there is always Dogger Banks, though that too is a low probability event...

What do people think, would the Germans and British go to war in 1905 if the Russo-Japanese war broke out as in OTL, but the British are only allied with the Japanese, not the Russians?

That actually might have some more possibilities than what I was thinking of going with...

So, in 1902, we probably should have the Anglo-Japanese Alliance include the Germans as well...maybe I'll just make it later than OTL due to the additional party in the negotiations and go with January 1903...so I don't have to do a re-write...was it early or late 1902 IOTL?

it was signed in London on January 30, 1902
 
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Glen said:
Hmmm...do people think that an actual World War would break out over this?

The Japanese were allied with the British OTL, yet the British didn't go to war with Russia OTL...of course, they were also allied with Russia by that time...

Hmmm...and there is always Dogger Banks, though that too is a low probability event...

What do people think, would the Germans and British go to war in 1905 if the Russo-Japanese war broke out as in OTL, but the British are only allied with the Japanese, not the Russians?

That actually might have some more possibilities than what I was thinking of going with...

So, in 1902, we probably should have the Anglo-Japanese Alliance include the Germans as well...maybe I'll just make it later than OTL due to the additional party in the negotiations and go with January 1903...so I don't have to do a re-write...was it early or late 1902 IOTL?

I think it could be a catalyst to war, as there were many in OTL build up to WW1. i don't know too much about the alliances before WW1, Germany would jump at the chance maybe leading to them going east,while the Russo-Japan war is on. This could finish off Russian even quicker, or would Russia be more responsive to japans actions, instead of ignoring Japan in the build up to the Russo-Japanese war
 
The Balkan wars are going to be very messy.

I think they preclude having the Ottomans and the Italians on the same side - as I remember one of the big reasons from Italy's defection from the CP was AH's support for the Ottomans during this period.
 

Glen

Moderator
Alratan said:
The Balkan wars are going to be very messy.

I think they preclude having the Ottomans and the Italians on the same side - as I remember one of the big reasons from Italy's defection from the CP was AH's support for the Ottomans during this period.

What makes you think the Balkan wars will be 'very messy' relative to OTL?
 
Glen said:
What makes you think the Balkan wars will be 'very messy' relative to OTL?

The relevant alliance groups have more conflicting agendas, and the Franco-Russian one is much more desperate than OTL. Without the British neutral or onside, it is far more important for them to have the Bosphurous open, or to control an equivilent rail route. Thanks to this they might be more willing to extend more support and give more concessions towards Italian ambitions in the Balkans when it falls out with AH. From here, anything could happen, although if the Germans and British dawdle too much we could see Russia, Italy and the Balkan nations dismembering the Ottomans, and then Britain rushing in to secure those possessions it felt were strategically essential.

It would certainly, if it dosn't result in general war, see a much tenser situation in the Med, with France, Italy, and Russia all threatening Britain's links to its Eastern Empire.
 

Glen

Moderator
Reading the timeline of the Russo-Japanese war, it appears that Russia might have taken the first tentative step towards an act of war with the moving of troops into Korea, though this is very loose.

Wouldn't the Russians at least have to technically be at fault for the alliance to activate?
 
Glen said:
Reading the timeline of the Russo-Japanese war, it appears that Russia might have taken the first tentative step towards an act of war with the moving of troops into Korea, though this is very loose.

Wouldn't the Russians at least have to technically be at fault for the alliance to activate?
Well Japan tried to get a Deal and Russia did garrison in Manchuria
From wiki.
"Japanese forces were trying to take over Korea, which had a protection pact with Russia. Russian forces consequently occupied most of Manchuria and parts of Korea.
After failing to negotiate a favorable agreement with Russia, Japan sent an ultimatum on 31 December 1903 and severed diplomatic relations on 6 February 1904. "

So if Japan could show that this was a act of aggression, which it easily can be shown, they have a justification to defend themselves hence start WW1, or the Japanese could stage a attack etc, Russia was very keen to get influence in that area as was Japan, something is going to happen regardless, However would Russian feel secure enough that Germany & Britain wont jump in? they might actually listen to the japan`s offer of talks, i wonder What Russia would be like after a 1905 war, considering there were many factors which were leading up to the 1905 revolution, worse case the UK & Germany & japan against them and revolts at home. How would they be partitioned, if the 3 Powers beat them?
 

Glen

Moderator
Hmmm...maybe the Dogger Bank incident or something like it still happens ITTL...except, as Britain is not allied with France but Germany, the Russians are more jumpy and when the RN arrives, a real fight ensues....
 
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