Post-WWII Czechoslovak arms industry if it remains non-communist

Alferiz · Mar 26, 2015

In a scenario where Czechoslovakia doesn't go Red, how would its arms industry look like? Is it possible for them to become a major indigenous arms producer? Is there also a chance that they can get license to manufacture late wartime German AFVs, especially when Germany itself is still demilitarized?

Any other possible scenarios?

KACKO · Mar 26, 2015

Probably much smaller. OTL after war few new factories were built in Slovakia in addition to some built there shortly before war.

OTL just Slovak part of Czechoslovakia manufactured over 55 000 tanks and APCs. From T-34s and it's variants, Tatra OT-810 APC (development of Sdkfz 251) there were T-54/55s and T-72 tanks, BVP-1 and BVP-2 APCs, self propelled artillery Dana and Zuzana. In Czech factories shitload of MiG-15s were built as well as MiG-19s and little of MiG-21s.

Artillery pieces were manufactured, multiply rocket launchers, AT guns etc.

Aero manufactured thousands of training jets L-29 Delfin and L-39 Albatros. As well as license built transport Il-18s or Czecholsovak Letov L-410.

Small arms of course. OTL maybe something similar to Czechoslovak Samopal SA-58 would be developed anyway firing NATO ammo. There were good designers.

I don't think if Czechoslovakia was in western zone so much would be manufactured. Probably some tanks and APCs in cooperation with some German or French companies, jets maybe something on level of Mig-15 in early 50-ties. Training jets? I am not sure, to big completion from Britain, France and Italy. Maybe license built.

PsihoKekec · Mar 26, 2015

I'm quite sure they would still produce their own light arms, artillery, trucks and light armour. Tanks and aircraft would most likely be built under licence, but maybe the first generation tank would still be their own design. They would probably make a Hetzer II (with proper Czech name that is) with 90 mm gun and better engine.

KACKO · Mar 26, 2015

PsihoKekec said:
I'm quite sure they would still produce their own light arms, artillery, trucks and light armour. Tanks and aircraft would most likely be built under licence, but maybe the first generation tank would still be their own design. They would probably make a Hetzer II (with proper Czech name that is) with 90 mm gun and better engine.

Hetzer II? Well there were some thoughts to put on it Czechoslovak AT gun 76.2 mm and later Soviet 85 mm AT gun. Something else could be developed on chassis of LT-38 too. However development of new medium tank started after war. Something called T-40/50. Check drawing.
http://forum.valka.cz/attachments/3583/vha_fl-vtu-1947_kl-015_sl-15671_str-013.jpg

superkuf · Mar 26, 2015

General Luna said:
In a scenario where Czechoslovakia doesn't go Red, how would its arms industry look like? Is it possible for them to become a major indigenous arms producer? Is there also a chance that they can get license to manufacture late wartime German AFVs, especially when Germany itself is still demilitarized?

Any other possible scenarios?

Depends on the POD. Let's say the scenario from "Operation Compass Succeeds" goes through (short: no british intervention i Greece early 1941 leads to british victory in North Africa before german intervention, the japanese don't take Singapore etc) and the WAllies are far stronger in the negotiation with the soviets, and that D-Day takes of in 1943.

Thereby Czechoslovakia is liberated by the WAllies, but are forced to become neutral as Austria IOTL. (Let's remove all restrictions on weapon types that Austria suffered.) Then CZ problably would go the Swedish way - develop a big weapon industry for self-defense.

Aircrafts would probably be a problem, since it would need access to good jet engines fron the West (which Sweden got through some creative dealing and netutrality breaking agreements) but CZ could definetly build a lot of tanks and artillery designed for Czech needs and tactics.

I guess a modernized Hertzer/tank destroyer would be first on order, since
a) the Czechs would see the Red Army and its fleets of tanks as the primary threat, and tank destroyers were the best way to stop tanks
b) tank destroyers are clearly defensive weapons, showing that CZ will honor its neutrality.

CZ would probably be a big exporter of weapons, with their past know-how and available Skoda Works. IOTL Israel got a lot of second hand CZ weapons before 1948 - the same would be true ITTL.

Another example is that target shooting was a big sport in ITOL CZ, and the CZ-75 was a big export product. I can think that a free CZ would get good results in international championships and use the sportsmen to promote their rifles/handguns on the international civilian market. And after that sales on the military market for small arms are very likely.

CZ could do some military cooperation with other neutral countries such as Finland, Sweden, Switzerland etc - CZ tanks for Swedish aircrafts, for example.

Deleted member 1487 · Mar 26, 2015

superkuf said:
Depends on the POD. Let's say the scenario from "Operation Compass Succeeds" goes through (short: no british intervention i Greece early 1941 leads to british victory in North Africa before german intervention, the japanese don't take Singapore etc) and the WAllies are far stronger in the negotiation with the soviets, and that D-Day takes of in 1943.

Thereby Czechoslovakia is liberated by the WAllies, but are forced to become neutral as Austria IOTL. (Let's remove all restrictions on weapon types that Austria suffered.) Then CZ problably would go the Swedish way - develop a big weapon industry for self-defense.

Aircrafts would probably be a problem, since it would need access to good jet engines fron the West (which Sweden got through some creative dealing and netutrality breaking agreements) but CZ could definetly build a lot of tanks and artillery designed for Czech needs and tactics.

I guess a modernized Hertzer/tank destroyer would be first on order, since
a) the Czechs would see the Red Army and its fleets of tanks as the primary threat, and tank destroyers were the best way to stop tanks
b) tank destroyers are clearly defensive weapons, showing that CZ will honor its neutrality.

CZ would probably be a big exporter of weapons, with their past know-how and available Skoda Works. IOTL Israel got a lot of second hand CZ weapons before 1948 - the same would be true ITTL.

Another example is that target shooting was a big sport in ITOL CZ, and the CZ-75 was a big export product. I can think that a free CZ would get good results in international championships and use the sportsmen to promote their rifles/handguns on the international civilian market. And after that sales on the military market for small arms are very likely.

CZ could do some military cooperation with other neutral countries such as Finland, Sweden, Switzerland etc - CZ tanks for Swedish aircrafts, for example.

Actually the Czechs and Soviets had a good relationship pre-WW2 as they were the only ones to stick up for the Czechs in 1938. Post-WW2 they pretty much only trusted the Soviets and were one of the only countries to freely vote in communists in 1948; if they are neutral they probably would be closer to a Yugoslav model and stay pretty Soviet friendly, especially compared to OTL without having to deal with the oppressive occupation they had IOTL.

KACKO · Mar 26, 2015

wiking said:
Actually the Czechs and Soviets had a good relationship pre-WW2 as they were the only ones to stick up for the Czechs in 1938. Post-WW2 they pretty much only trusted the Soviets and were one of the only countries to freely vote in communists in 1948; if they are neutral they probably would be closer to a Yugoslav model and stay pretty Soviet friendly, especially compared to OTL without having to deal with the oppressive occupation they had IOTL.

Or to Austrian. Remember that in Slovakia communist badly lost in last free election after war. You are right that neutrality would be quite popular especially if NATO was founded and Germany would be member.

superkuf · Mar 26, 2015

wiking said:
Actually the Czechs and Soviets had a good relationship pre-WW2 as they were the only ones to stick up for the Czechs in 1938. Post-WW2 they pretty much only trusted the Soviets and were one of the only countries to freely vote in communists in 1948; if they are neutral they probably would be closer to a Yugoslav model and stay pretty Soviet friendly, especially compared to OTL without having to deal with the oppressive occupation they had IOTL.

Highly unlikely with a WAllied liberation and free elections. CZ was at the bottom a well-organized, western and democratic country. They wouldn't neither go for a one party dictatorship like Yugoslavia nor socialistic economy like the Soviet Union.

A neutral but democratic CZ would likely be somewhat like Sweden (and Austria) with a neutral social democratic government that promoted both a welfare state and a privately owned, advanced industry.

Since the ITTL CZ could see what happened to the Poles and Hungarians after WW2 I doubt that Soviet or communism would be appreciated. CZ would probably get huge amounts of refugees during the end of WW2 and beginning of the peace.

Landshark · Mar 26, 2015

Interestingly enough Czechoslovakia exported tanks to Sweden before WW2 and these vehicles formed the basis of Swedish tank design during the 40's and 50's. Perhaps we'd see the two countries collaborating post war with the Czechs buying or licencing Swedish plane designs and the Swedes doing the same with Czech tanks and armoured vehicles.

So the Czech air force would be flying SAAB Tunnans, Lansens and Drakens during the 50's and 60's.

On the flip side the Swedes might adopt Czech small arms like the vz. 58 (chambered for the original 7.62 x 45 mm round).

KACKO · Mar 26, 2015

Landshark said:
Interestingly enough Czechoslovakia exported tanks to Sweden before WW2 and these vehicles formed the basis of Swedish tank design during the 40's and 50's. Perhaps we'd see the two countries collaborating post war with the Czechoslovaks buying or licencing Swedish plane designs and the Swedes doing the same with Czechslovak tanks and armoured vehicles.

So the Czechslovak air force would be flying SAAB Tunnans, Lansens and Drakens during the 50's and 60's.

On the flip side the Swedes might adopt Czechslovak small arms like the vz. 58 (chambered for the original 7.62 x 45 mm round).

Did some correction for you. This was one of biggest thing which was pissing of Slovaks. When on vacation out of Czechoslovakia suddenly they were Czech.

Czechoslovakia will very likely as OTL produce whatever it can by itself till end of 40-ties. In 50-ties either it will develop some jet fighter plane (there were some plans) or may look to license something. I thing French or British design will prevail. More likely French Dassault fighter jets will be licensed.

LeX · Mar 26, 2015

KACKO said:
Probably much smaller. OTL after war few new factories were built in Slovakia in addition to some built there shortly before war.

OTL just Slovak part of Czechoslovakia manufactured over 55 000 tanks and APCs. From T-34s and it's variants, Tatra OT-810 APC (development of Sdkfz 251) there were T-54/55s and T-72 tanks, BVP-1 and BVP-2 APCs, self propelled artillery Dana and Zuzana. In Czech factories shitload of MiG-15s were built as well as MiG-19s and little of MiG-21s.

Artillery pieces were manufactured, multiply rocket launchers, AT guns etc.

Do you have any documents on the Czechoslovak military industry in the Cold War? I'm not doubting your claims, I'm just interested in further information.

KACKO · Mar 26, 2015

LeX said:
Do you have any documents on the Czechoslovak military industry in the Cold War? I'm not doubting your claims, I'm just interested in further information.

I would say number of armored vehicle manufactured is bit striking right? Exact Numbers could be bit bigger or bit smaller. Slovakia was producing tanks like somebody bagels. What I know for sure around 18 000 of that were T-55s.

At that time CSSR exported some 35 000 tanks and APCs. 3rd place in world in export of these kind of products. Right after USSR and USA.

I do have book on Armor manufactured in Slovak factories. Information for MiG-15s, -19s and 21s as well as L-29s and 39s I would need to look for on Czech and Slovak web. I was usually interested in pre war and war period so don't have so much in my library.

What exactly are you looking for? Here is nice article on Czechoslovak arms manufacturing in Czech language.
http://www.militaria.cz/cz/clanky/zbrane-a-zbroj/od-obrnenych-vozidel.html

Btw I forgot about 1182 shturmovik Avia B-33 (Il-10).

LeX · Mar 26, 2015

Thanks, that's roughly what I was looking for. How fascinating.

Blackfox5 · Mar 26, 2015

wiking said:
Actually the Czechs and Soviets had a good relationship pre-WW2 as they were the only ones to stick up for the Czechs in 1938. Post-WW2 they pretty much only trusted the Soviets and were one of the only countries to freely vote in communists in 1948; if they are neutral they probably would be closer to a Yugoslav model and stay pretty Soviet friendly, especially compared to OTL without having to deal with the oppressive occupation they had IOTL.

The Czechoslovakians had a good relationship with the Soviet until 1947 when it became obvious the Communists could not be trusted and were actually the main threat now - not the Germans. The Communists did well in the 1946 elections which were fair and free, but the 1948 vote was done under a Communist dictatorship. Everything looked towards a major defeat in the 1948 elections for the Communists until they seized power in the Prague Coup. People had finally realized how much of a threat the local Communist Party was.

If Benes had realized the threat and acted more decisively, it is possible he could have prevented the coup by working with the democratic opposition. If so, it is entirely possible that Czechoslovakia might have joined NATO although official neutrality is still a realistic scenario.

Finland and Austria both became neutral because of deals they had to make to remove the Soviet troops from their country. By 1946 though, all Soviet troops had already left Czechoslovakia - there was no occupation because Czechoslovakia was never a member of the Axis in any format, and unlike Poland Stalin did not need to maintain supply lines (plus the country never had territorial disputes like Poland did, and Benes was much friendlier with Moscow during the war years than Poland was). If Prague voted out the Communists in 1948 in free elections (which would have happened), then nothing would prevent Czechoslovakia from joining NATO except an explicit threat of invasion by Stalin - but joining NATO need not have happened immediately. It could be delayed until West Germany joined and Prague maintain official neutrality for a while.

Simon · Mar 26, 2015

If supposing for a moment that Czechoslovakia remained independent and a part of the West do people think that they would still sell large amounts of arms, materiel and even a hundred odd fighter aircraft to the nascent state of Israel? As I understood it a fair amount of their armoury was purchased from the Czechoslovakians. I suppose it would depend in large part what Benes' or whoever ends up in charge attitude to them is, plus to a lesser extent the US'.

Driftless · Mar 26, 2015

A bit of tangent, but how would a post WW2 partition into what is now the Czech Republic and Slovakia play against the OP's idea? I'm thinking on the order of the post WW2 German partition.

Bad@logic · Mar 26, 2015

Simon said:
If supposing for a moment that Czechoslovakia remained independent and a part of the West do people think that they would still sell large amounts of arms, materiel and even a hundred odd fighter aircraft to the nascent state of Israel? As I understood it a fair amount of their armoury was purchased from the Czechoslovakians. I suppose it would depend in large part what Benes' or whoever ends up in charge attitude to them is, plus to a lesser extent the US'.

Wouldn't they be even more desperate for cash and rebuilding their industries if they were part of the Western bloc? They're on the front lines of the West vis a vis the USSR's sphere of influence after all, and they'll be struggling to try to rebuild their independence. It seems likely to me that with that that they would be more eager to try to sell their weapons for foreign exchange and industrial rebuilding with that, although perhaps I am incorrect on that point.

KACKO · Mar 26, 2015

Bad@logic said:
Wouldn't they be even more desperate for cash and rebuilding their industries if they were part of the Western bloc? They're on the front lines of the West vis a vis the USSR's sphere of influence after all, and they'll be struggling to try to rebuild their independence. It seems likely to me that with that that they would be more eager to try to sell their weapons for foreign exchange and industrial rebuilding with that, although perhaps I am incorrect on that point.

Czechoslovakia was offered to participate on Marshall plan but under Moscow influence refused. So somethig could be gained for rebuilding over there. Anyway even weapons sales. Many fall through because of Moscow disagreement. During communist ea, many sales of Czechoslovak manufactured tanks and services offered were not approved by Moscow and... fell through. Few years ago I red article about export to Lybia but Lybians were interested in building repair facility for their tanks in which Czechoslovakia was very interested but Moscow as seller of the license to Czechoslovakia didn't agree.

Post-WWII Czechoslovak arms industry if it remains non-communist

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