WI : Roman Wilhelmsburg

Hey all,

I was curious as to what people thought the repercussions would be of a Roman settlement on the island of Wilhelmsburg on the Elbe.

Essentially, the idea behind this was a governor/ambitious naval officer/general petitions for funding and support to develop a trading settlement deep inside Germania, after determining that the island was a good location.

The settlements intention would be to trade with the various tribes, act as a centrepoint for Roman Hegemony. A mixture of naval operation, diplomatic mission, colonial endeavor, and trade point. One major point being to hire/recruit willing germans as either colonials within the Empire, or as soldiers/mercenaries to assist on other frontiers (i.e. Britannia).

As far as I am aware, the islets themselves were largely ignored, and should be too difficult to defend.

What could such a Roman settlement do for the region? It could have been begun at any time, but what about if the settlement was begun under Diocletian after the 3rd century crisis?

GdwnsnHo said:

What could such a Roman settlement do for the region? It could have been begun at any time, but what about if the settlement was begun under Diocletian after the 3rd century crisis?

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A settlement on the Elbe, then clearly a region not on Roman control, in a period where the big issues was the lack of manpower and lack of ressources?
I'm sorry, but that's simply not going to happen.

Trade and exchanges with Western Germanic tribes was already a reality since the Ist century, and Romans felt (with good reasons) that it was simply easier to control it trough the borders and the limes rather than going deeper in Magna Germania. While the conquest of Weser/Main/Elbe regions isn't outside the realm of possible (while, for several reasons listed in the other thread, I'm more encline to believe in a more reduced presence), I'm not convinced that three or more small islets (the isle itself is an artificial creation from the XVIIth century) would have attracted the attention.

An Upper Elbian trade center would certainly be a Koln-equivalent : meaning a trade center and a city built around a military camp.

It is hard to see why they would consider it necessary. Assuming it is built, the logical outcome in Roman policy is either abandonment in relatively short order or consolidation of control. The status quo would not work, there would inevitably be some friction, and the Roman government doesn't deal well with that.

It is, of course, qwuite possible that such a temporary post existed. We know that Roman ships entered the Elbe, and recent excavations indicate a naval presence in the estuary at least over several years. We now also know that a Roman outpost in Ireland was maintained for some time (such a 'short presence' in archeological terms can easily mean decades).

Wilhelmsburg is not exactly ideal - the islands are low-lying and marshy and, in their natural state, subject to periodic flooding. I would assume the Romans to set up shop on one of the tributary mouths, on higher ground. That's where historically, settlements have grown, too, so it'd be more or less under Stade, Altona, Harburg or Hamburg.

Historically, it's unlikely to have made a difference. The Romans had extensive contact with the Germanic peoples of the region (the Copenhagen National Museum did a big exhibition on it). They traded and managed diplomatic relations - at one point apparently suborning local potentates to keep their southerly neighbours on their toes, thus mitigating any threat to the Rhine frontier. Roman military equipment features regularly in grave goods, indicating locals were recruited. For all we know, such a camp - a temporary location for trading and showing the flag to support regional allies - may have been there. Archeology in the metropolitan region is underfunded and poorly run.

LSCatilina said:

A settlement on the Elbe, then clearly a region not on Roman control, in a period where the big issues was the lack of manpower and lack of ressources?
I'm sorry, but that's simply not going to happen.

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Ack, fair point - what would be a better point/more plausible point then?

LSCatilina said:

An Upper Elbian trade center would certainly be a Koln-equivalent : meaning a trade center and a city built around a military camp.

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Upper Elbian? (googles) ah, there are two - I mean this Wilhelmsburg, so Lower Elbe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelmsburg,_Hamburg.