Asia without Buddhism
- Thread starter Montgomerie Ward
- Start date
Wouldn't Jainism be more present ITTL?
I'm thinking to the possible persecution by Ashoka, for example but even without this, is less religious rivality could have an impact?
I'm thinking to the possible persecution by Ashoka, for example but even without this, is less religious rivality could have an impact?
Animist and traditional ancestor worship will persist on the steppes and in the mountainous central regions. Perhaps Islam gains more traction there? Or Confucianism?
I would be interested to see the progression of Taoism without later Buddhist influence. I wouldn't be surprised if Taoism became the more important counterweight to Confucianism in China, perhaps to the point it becomes the preferred spiritual philosophy for the Japanese and Koreans. Then again, traditional Japanese animism and Shinto would be very interesting to see without the influence of Zen.
I would be interested to see the progression of Taoism without later Buddhist influence. I wouldn't be surprised if Taoism became the more important counterweight to Confucianism in China, perhaps to the point it becomes the preferred spiritual philosophy for the Japanese and Koreans. Then again, traditional Japanese animism and Shinto would be very interesting to see without the influence of Zen.
Islam would probably fill in some gaps too. Nestorian Christianity would probably see a boost as well.
Ooh, I just thought of a Tibetan Nestorian Christianity, with a Dalai Lama/Pontiff/Patriarch analogue.
Well, of course, Islam and Christianity (let alone any given variant thereof) are butterflied away by any PoD as early as preventing/suppressing Buddhism.
Will there be some ascetic, fanatic religion come out of the desert and sweep across continents? Certainly. Will it be based on Judaism? Quite possibly. Will it particularly resemble Christianity or Islam in many details? Almost certainly not.
Said religion could also be based on e.g. Zorastrianism or possibly some other local nation's peculiar god. (Peculiar TO the nation, not 'odd'.)
Taoism and Confucianism still co-exist like in OTL. Or, should we say it would be a perfect example of "yin and yang".
Would Hinduism necessarily replace Shenism/Shinto? I'm not entirely convinced this would be the case.
More likely it stays Bön, or something similar at least. Mongolia might likewise be primarily a Tengri-worshipping folk. Too many people seem to assume an evangelical religion must take the place of Buddhism rather than the native folkloric beliefs Buddhism supplemented.
No assumptions here, just thought the idea was interesting and worth mentioning. As someone said before, a no Buddhism POD also likely butterflies away Christianity.
Probably not. I was just thinking how Hinduism spread in Southeast Asia and extrapolated from there. I was thinking a modified Hinduism, one without the caste system, might spread simply given the lack of competition. I don't forsee it displacing Chinese traditional religion or Shintoism. More likely it would influence these religions. Hindu gods might start popping up in the Japanese pantheon for example. I'm not the best when it comes to East Asian history though.
Flocculencio
Donor
The thing is, most varieties of modern Hinduism developed out of the same Axial Age forces that spurred the development of Buddhism and Jainism. "Hinduism" before the Axial Age was quite different. if you remove Buddhism, alt-Hinduism will be very different.
How different, exactly ? How did pre-Buddhism Vedic religion even look like ?
PhilippeO
Banned
our knowledge of "primitive religion of Asia" is simply too limited.
Shintoism and Taoism is very heavily influenced by Buddhism.
if no other evangelical religion spreading in Asia, i think closest comparison would be Africa / Papua traditional religion.
most god would be very localized, and worshipped by its own clan/tribe/jati; in several places were state organised, chief god of ruling clan would be national god; most worship would be public worship of clan/tribes; private worship/belief/devotion would be extremely rare, shaman/dukun/mudang/witch doctor/spirit talker would be very widespread, but their worship is more "transactional" of cure/bless/curse than religion; association of religion with dogma/theology/morality would be lower, most god-worship would be state god/city god/tribal god rather than something people convert to.
Shintoism and Taoism is very heavily influenced by Buddhism.
if no other evangelical religion spreading in Asia, i think closest comparison would be Africa / Papua traditional religion.
most god would be very localized, and worshipped by its own clan/tribe/jati; in several places were state organised, chief god of ruling clan would be national god; most worship would be public worship of clan/tribes; private worship/belief/devotion would be extremely rare, shaman/dukun/mudang/witch doctor/spirit talker would be very widespread, but their worship is more "transactional" of cure/bless/curse than religion; association of religion with dogma/theology/morality would be lower, most god-worship would be state god/city god/tribal god rather than something people convert to.
Tbh I don't think Jainism is really going to have a significant spread without changing considerably.
Jainism (to my understanding based purely off of books) looks at proselytising as pointless as due to reincarnation and Karma those who will achieve moksha will be born into a Jain family/ a life where they convert of their own accord.
Furthermore it's travelling priests are notable for not wearing clothes, something that causes great difficulty in travelling really in any direction from India.
The only way I could see it travelling would be through the use of traders but really without setting up a foundation it may be hard to translate into other cultures.
Buddhism was helped in its travel by numerous advantages beyond the suggested above that Jainism just didn't have. Not only is the core of Buddhism something which can translate into cultures with no Pre-set concept of karma (we all know suffering) but when it travelled into china it found an already well established philosophical culture in the Daoist priests who had well translated in an intuitive fashion the more complex areas of Buddhist thought (I.e. emptiness).
Jainism doesn't really share these qualities I'm afraid.
I wrote a large post for this but my iPad closed the page just before finishing it
So a short version, I can't think of any good candidates for a religion as universal and translatable in values as Buddhism is. Certainly not Jainism (unless it evolves considerably).
What I would love to see (although I can't imagine it gaining too much traction for reasons I will explain below) would be a successful Carvaka movement. A long lasting and well established hedonistic and atheistic philosophy being established as a cultural norm in the kingdoms of India and beyond would be a fantastic divergence from the stereotypes of the somber asceticism usually associated with the subcontinent.
I don't think this is likely however as a mass hedonist movement has little justification for compliance from criminals and disgruntled peasants. In a Buddhist culture, banditry or rebellion could easily get you bad karma and effective meditation can help remove your angst. Unless it becomes super complex, Carvaka has a hard time doctrinally preventing this as it is both famous for suggesting no bad side effects from terrible crimes (a quote that stands out for this goes something like "I can slaughter my way up the Ganges and receive no bad karma") and with its hard line hedonism actually gives decent justification for criminal behaviour as long as you don't mess up.
The only way I could see it surviving would be in a similar fashion to Buddhism in china, a brotherhood of ideas with a local belief system. The only one I can think of that is compatible however would be Yangism but that too would fail for (as I understand it similar reasons).
...I'm now imagining a timeline of an Asia dominated by complex atheistic and egoist schools of thought... That sounds like such a fun read.
So a short version, I can't think of any good candidates for a religion as universal and translatable in values as Buddhism is. Certainly not Jainism (unless it evolves considerably).
What I would love to see (although I can't imagine it gaining too much traction for reasons I will explain below) would be a successful Carvaka movement. A long lasting and well established hedonistic and atheistic philosophy being established as a cultural norm in the kingdoms of India and beyond would be a fantastic divergence from the stereotypes of the somber asceticism usually associated with the subcontinent.
I don't think this is likely however as a mass hedonist movement has little justification for compliance from criminals and disgruntled peasants. In a Buddhist culture, banditry or rebellion could easily get you bad karma and effective meditation can help remove your angst. Unless it becomes super complex, Carvaka has a hard time doctrinally preventing this as it is both famous for suggesting no bad side effects from terrible crimes (a quote that stands out for this goes something like "I can slaughter my way up the Ganges and receive no bad karma") and with its hard line hedonism actually gives decent justification for criminal behaviour as long as you don't mess up.
The only way I could see it surviving would be in a similar fashion to Buddhism in china, a brotherhood of ideas with a local belief system. The only one I can think of that is compatible however would be Yangism but that too would fail for (as I understand it similar reasons).
...I'm now imagining a timeline of an Asia dominated by complex atheistic and egoist schools of thought... That sounds like such a fun read.
You know, I think people are too fixated on this approach. Reality is not a Paradox game where the moment you include a discordant factor everything goes completely off-the-rails. Things happen in history for a reason. The emergence of Islam wasn't an accident, it was a result of hundreds upon hundreds of years of history of the Arabian Peninsula. Changing one element in a (at that point) unrelated part of the world doesn't have to butterfly it away (though it can).
Depends on when you look at it from. The early Vedic religion was very pantheistic, had a very flexible caste system (surprisingly), was very adoptive of the concepts of reincarnation and karma which have been thought to be slightly Indus Valley concepts and also was deeply involved in nature worship.
As time went on and the Iron Age went into it's full, so did the rigid Vedic priesthood and caste system, it's various myriad assortments of gods and schools of though along with it evolved.
An interesting thought about the religion is that nowhere in the texts do the various Vedic deities actually proclaim themselves gods as in the Old Testament and other scriptures. The first time it actually happens is much later in the Upanishads and Mahabharata where Krishna/Vaasudeva proclaims himself to be an incarnation of the eternal being.
I wrote a large post for this but my iPad closed the page just before finishing it
So a short version, I can't think of any good candidates for a religion as universal and translatable in values as Buddhism is. Certainly not Jainism (unless it evolves considerably).
What I would love to see (although I can't imagine it gaining too much traction for reasons I will explain below) would be a successful Carvaka movement. A long lasting and well established hedonistic and atheistic philosophy being established as a cultural norm in the kingdoms of India and beyond would be a fantastic divergence from the stereotypes of the somber asceticism usually associated with the subcontinent.
I don't think this is likely however as a mass hedonist movement has little justification for compliance from criminals and disgruntled peasants. In a Buddhist culture, banditry or rebellion could easily get you bad karma and effective meditation can help remove your angst. Unless it becomes super complex, Carvaka has a hard time doctrinally preventing this as it is both famous for suggesting no bad side effects from terrible crimes (a quote that stands out for this goes something like "I can slaughter my way up the Ganges and receive no bad karma") and with its hard line hedonism actually gives decent justification for criminal behaviour as long as you don't mess up.
The only way I could see it surviving would be in a similar fashion to Buddhism in china, a brotherhood of ideas with a local belief system. The only one I can think of that is compatible however would be Yangism but that too would fail for (as I understand it similar reasons).
...I'm now imagining a timeline of an Asia dominated by complex atheistic and egoist schools of thought... That sounds like such a fun read.
On another thread, 'Why Didn't India Unify Like China', Caravaka thought was exactly what I proposed what would be the perfect solution.
I remember reading somewhere that a Carvaka scholar once wrote about something like 'The authors of the Rigveda are fat bellied jackals whose mouths should be silenced' or something along those lines.
And that is precisely why Carvaka thought would succeed. It promotes the image of a filthy rich and decadent East, as well as being the complete opposite of Legalism.
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