WI P-38 Lightnings in RAF service?

What if the RAF had been equipped with large numbers of improved P-38s starting in late 1940 to 1942? Enough to equip many fighter wings?

Here is the PODs. One minor the other major. Lt Kelsey manages to not crash land the prototype P-38 ( fuel exhaustion or carburettor icing?) in New Jersey therefore saving Lockheed the time and expense of building a new prototype. This allows Kelly Johnson and his team to work out some of the aerodynamic bugs of this cutting edge aircraft a little earlier.

The big POD not sure how as it's political but the US government doesn't embargo Turbo-supercharger technology from export to the U.K. and the British Air Ministry doesn't stupidly insist on foregoing opposite turning engines and Turbo-super charging for the RAFs Lightnings.

If RAF pilots had available for evaluation something similar to the P-38F in around October 1940 it would have led to a much faster development and improvement of the P-38. With combat experienced Royal Airforce pilots flying the Lightning on combat operations in the fall of 1940 and their observations and recommendations feed back to Lockheed plus the money of British orders funding a much quicker pre-USA WW2 entry development of the P-38 the much improved P-38L or paddle-bladed K type improved type airplane with more powerful and reliable engines, compressibility dive flaps and aileron boost could have been produced late 1941 early 1942. Plus whatever other recommendations the RAF would have submitted and funded, eg improved cockpit layout, improved canopy, better gunsight etc.

And what would the RAF want with hundreds of expensive and maintenance intensive twin-engine fighters? That's for my next thread but here is two big hints. The first Allied fighters to reach Berlin were P-38s. Barnes Wallis.

Not sure about the production issues but they would certainly be useful in North Africa and South East Asia and the CBI where the long range would certainly be a bonus, particularly for overwater missions.

Also, does this make some available for the RAAF and when?

Draconis said:

And what would the RAF want with hundreds of expensive and maintenance intensive twin-engine fighters?

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They already had that in the Westland Whirlwind

Have the P-38 added to the F.37/35 fighter competition, so the RAF gets more input on Lockheed, and Lockheed has an excuse to build a prototype right away, rather than waiting nearly a year after winning the USAAC competition in 1937 to start building in 1938.

According to Wikipedia the P-38 was used by the Royal Air force.

Airship_pirate1901 said:

According to Wikipedia the P-38 was used by the Royal Air force.

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But as a 'neutered' Lightning

And what about a Merlin powered Lightining?

maybe an improved fokker G1 with merlins?

Airship_pirate1901 said:

According to Wikipedia the P-38 was used by the Royal Air force.

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TTL is talking about getting them sooner. Others have toyed with this idea on this forum as well although I think it is for the USAAF not the RAF.

Let's say the RAF was able to get the Lockheed Lightning with the original turbocharger installation and the RAF was able to make is a viable long-range escort fighter.

Fitted with drop tanks, these planes could have escorted bombers with a combat radius not much shorter than what the P-51B/C achieved--in early 1943. As such, the RAF planes could have prevented the disastrous loss of Allied bombers during the second half of 1943 as B-17's and B-24's went well beyond the range of the combat radius of other fighters of the period.

There are a few different ways it could work out. In OTL the P-51 and the B-17 both saw service with the RAF over Europe. The result was a large number of improvements.

The B-17 was redesigned to improve high altitude stability and performance. Calls to improve defensive armament by the RAF resulted in adoption of the ball and top turrets plus the redesigned tail accommodated the addition of a tail gunner.

The P-51 was originally designed as an alternative to the P-40 with the same Allison engine and similar armaments. Changes that the RAF pushed for led directly to the improved P-51D with the Merlin engine, bubble canopy and 6 .50 cal HMGs.

If P-38s had been in RAF service, from say just before the BOB, they would have shined in the bomber interceptor role, quickly becoming a major headache for the Luftwaffe. The British probably would have experimented with engines and weapons while pushing Lockheed to improve the airframe. A Merlin engined Lightning with 4x20mm would have been impressive.

However the biggest change would have been an earlier discovery that the low drag airframe of the P-38 is subject to the dangerous phenomenon of mach tuck with corrective action taken much sooner than in OTL.

Zheng He said:

Not sure about the production issues but they would certainly be useful in North Africa and South East Asia and the CBI where the long range would certainly be a bonus, particularly for overwater missions.

Also, does this make some available for the RAAF and when?

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Perhaps after U.S. entry into the war and increased production would see more Lightnings available for other theaters through Lend-Lease. Though as in OTL the USAAF would be grabbing everything for a while in the panic after Pearl Harbour.

marathag said:

They already had that in the Westland Whirlwind

Have the P-38 added to the F.37/35 fighter competition, so the RAF gets more input on Lockheed, and Lockheed has an excuse to build a prototype right away, rather than waiting nearly a year after winning the USAAC competition in 1937 to start building in 1938.

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The Westland Whirlwind was another example design showing the promise and advantages of what could be done using two 1940ish piston engines of the time. But the Whirlwind was crippled by engine problems and resources went elsewhere. If the Whirlwind could have been equipped with Merlins instead of the Peregine engines perhaps the RAF would have had something like DH Hornet performance almost 5 years earlier.

Ramontxo said:

And what about a Merlin powered Lightining?

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The Allison was well suited for the P-38 once the various problems were resolved. Finding enough Merlin engines to equip P-38s in 1940-41 would have taxed Rolls-Royce.

In fact I don't think Britain could have built anymore aircraft and engines then it was already producing at that time so the need for the various OTL American aircraft purchases. But in my TL British money and experience greatly accelerate what was in OTL the lengthy development of the Allison engine and the P-38 combo.

Peabody-Martini said:

If P-38s had been in RAF service, from say just before the BOB, they would have shined in the bomber interceptor role, quickly becoming a major headache for the Luftwaffe. The British probably would have experimented with engines and weapons while pushing Lockheed to improve the airframe. A Merlin engined Lightning with 4x20mm would have been impressive.

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if you can imagine a squadron or two of P-38's going after the bomber streams...nose mounted guns with longer range and heaver projectiles...

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However the biggest change would have been an earlier discovery that the low drag airframe of the P-38 is subject to the dangerous phenomenon of mach tuck with corrective action taken much sooner than in OTL.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. One of the biggest benefits from greater British involvment in the development of the P-38 would have been the experience RAF pilots were reporting on the first encounters with compressibility in high altitude and high speed dives with the Spitfire. As well as other effects and problems with pushing these planes to the absolute limits in combat maneuvering.

Lockheed built the Hudson patrol bomber mainly to British specifications.
I see no reason why with a couple of non-ASB Pods the same could not have be accomplished with the P-38. With British aircraft production tied up with orders the RAF could certainly use large numbers of improved Lightnings going into service by mid to late 1942 just in time for.............

Fork-Tailed Devil- the P-38, by Martin Caidin, and P-38, by Jeff Ethell, with illustrations by Watanabe dwell on my shelf, when they're not in my mitts.

British Typhoon pilots discovered mach effects before pilots discovered that Spitfires were much better at high-speed dives. British wind tunnels had said that the Hurricane was better than the Spit. I don't recall ever hearing about a Hurricane fast enough to suffer from mach effects. Eastman Jacobs worked at NACA Langley, on wind tunnels, and attended the Volta Conference to give a lecture on high-speed wind tunnels, in 1935. A couple Germans were there too. Jacobs went on to develop airfoils with laminarish flow, great for Mustangs. He left to John Stack the work of building the high-speed tunnel that found, and photographed the problem with the P38 mach tuck. This led to the development of the dive flap which alleviated the effects of the problem. Then, Lockheed screwed up big time, by not incorporating the flap into the line for 14 months. They did produce some kits to send to England by C-54, but the transport was shot down by a Spitfire pilot. There's a POD. There's nothing magic about RAF service. The B-17 was not changed due to RAF urging. The Mustang was discovered by a Rolls Royce agent. RAF pilots in the winter of 1941 would have found the Lightning freezing cold and unpressurized. Some of the controls could not be accessed without removing your hands from three layers of glove in a cockpit at -60. The P-38 was so needed in the Med and Pacific that these details, which would hold up production, were totally forgotten. The XP-49, a waste of time, was designed for pressurization, but not produced as such. Another waste was the XP-58. Both these aircraft were demanded by the AF for allowing Lockheed to fulfill the British contract for Lightnings, that was unconsummated. So much folly.

I just have to add that the Lightning wasn't really that sleek. The coolant rads used no Meredith Effect whatever.

Out of left field....

Pre-war did the French inquire about the P-38's before March 1940?

Also, with the radiator drag issue, had Lockheed ever considered leading edge radiators as done with the Mosquito, Whirlwind, Tempest etc?

Can't the Mosquito do pretty much what the RAF would have wanted of the P-38? Over the course of the war Mosquitos shot down nearly 490 Luftwaffe aircraft.

Off on another tangent,.....

How about an Allison V-1710 powered Whirlwind? Have the Turbosupercharger be part of a quid pro quo of the Tizzard Mission

*edit* Unlikely, but not ASB either. Peregrine powered Whirlwind enters service June 1940. OTL, because of the problematic Peregrine, and the high demand for Merlins, plus redesign of the Whirlwind to accomodate a Merlin; the Whirlwinds and phased out by 1943.

Tizzard Mission starts fall 1940? perhaps a deal for the Turbosupercharger, Or scrap the Turbosupercharger and go with the more readily available Allison and a British 2-stage supercharger?

Admiral Beez said:

Can't the Mosquito do pretty much what the RAF would have wanted of the P-38? Over the course of the war Mosquitos shot down nearly 490 Luftwaffe aircraft.

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The Mossie could do much more than the P-38 could. Some of Sid Seid's victory markings are V1s from anti-diver patrols. His squadron leader, Russ Bannock, scored 4 doodlebugs in one hour. Still, a Mossie wasn't an air-superiority day-fighter capable of escort missions.