Japan and Korea - Attractiveness to Europeans

Emperor-of-New-Zealand

Kicked
It has been established in the past that Japan and Korea didn't have a lot to offer European empires by way of colonies - with both, trade seemed more important. The question I am posing is essentially this; assuming either or both is colonised by a European power (either as a protectorate or conquered outright), what kind of resources could said power hope to find? Minerals? Tea?
 
Clandango

Clandango

Copper. For Japan, at least. They didn't have much in the way of gold or silver and charged high rates to get it form the Dutch, plus it apparently became one of the only reasons the Dutch kept up their post in Nagasaki. It was useful for trading with the Chinese. Possible they might also try snagging people to work on plantations or in mines.
 

Emperor-of-New-Zealand

Kicked
Clandango said:
Copper. For Japan, at least. They didn't have much in the way of gold or silver and charged high rates to get it form the Dutch, plus it apparently became one of the only reasons the Dutch kept up their post in Nagasaki. It was useful for trading with the Chinese. Possible they might also try snagging people to work on plantations or in mines.
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But of course, the reality at the time was that it wasn't worth conquering Japan for copper (I assume). What about Korea? If I recall correctly, both the Germans and French later had an interest in Korea.
 

Simreeve

Britain, at least, had own good sources of copper at home (mainly in northern Wales, including Anglesey, and south-western England) for at least part of the 'colonial period' anyway. I'm not sure when relying on those would have become less cost-effective than conquering Japan, but suspect that the threshold wouldn't have arrived until after Japanese modernisation began...
 

FasterThanRaito

Emperor-of-New-Zealand said:
It has been established in the past that Japan and Korea didn't have a lot to offer European empires by way of colonies - with both, trade seemed more important. The question I am posing is essentially this; assuming either or both is colonised by a European power (either as a protectorate or conquered outright), what kind of resources could said power hope to find? Minerals? Tea?
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Japan and and China were the only non-western countries that had a native ability to produce large amounts of firearms before the industrial revolution. I've heard that by the end of the Sengoku Jidai, Japan had more guns that all of Europe combined. It's pretty unrealistic for Japan to be conquered and colonized even before their "modernization".

As for Korea, they have lots of mineral wealth and coal in the northern mountain region, and while institutionally weak, were only susceptible to a large-scale and deliberate conquest, which was not how most of colonialism worked.
 

mlp

Korea has some coal, wood, iron and gold up in the north. Korea as a whole however would be much more about strategic positioning - it is near China(major trade market), easy to control/blockade nearby seas(balance against Russia/opposite idea), offers good harbours(coaling stations and warm-water ports), etc. It was only that no other colonial power was willing to go for Korea against the costs of doing so that it later became occupied by Japan.
 
Clandango

Clandango

What about needing them simply for things to trade with Asian states?
That is what the Dutch basically did, moving things between them due to their own limited commercial contact with each other, before using the funds to ship home spices and such.
 

Dathi THorfinnsson

Emperor-of-New-Zealand said:
It has been established in the past that Japan and Korea didn't have a lot to offer European empires by way of colonies - with both, trade seemed more important. The question I am posing is essentially this; assuming either or both is colonised by a European power (either as a protectorate or conquered outright), what kind of resources could said power hope to find? Minerals? Tea?
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Japan exported a fair bit of silver once the Iwami mine opened.

For Britain, getting silver and tea from Japan, and using that silver to buy more tea from China would have made a lot of sense.
 

mlp

Dathi THorfinnsson said:
Japan exported a fair bit of silver once the Iwami mine opened.

For Britain, getting silver and tea from Japan, and using that silver to buy more tea from China would have made a lot of sense.
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It's interesting how Korea almost literally has nothing to offer to the Europeans.
Except, maybe, chinaware. But nobody would enjoy the spartan, bland taste.
 

EMT

Clandango said:
Copper. For Japan, at least. They didn't have much in the way of gold or silver and charged high rates to get it form the Dutch, plus it apparently became one of the only reasons the Dutch kept up their post in Nagasaki. It was useful for trading with the Chinese. Possible they might also try snagging people to work on plantations or in mines.
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If you want Copper, Peru and Chile are your place to go tbh. No need for a conquest and relatively open for trade.
 

mlp

EMT said:
If you want Copper, Peru and Chile are your place to go tbh. No need for a conquest and relatively open for trade.
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But those Latin American nations are owned by Spain, an enemy of England!..
^perhaps such a reason can spur the English into invading Japan?
 

EMT

zeppelinair said:
But those Latin American nations are owned by Spain, an enemy of England!..
^perhaps such a reason can spur the English into invading Japan?
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By the time it'd be viable to do so, the British really don't need to, those lands are free.
 

mlp

EMT said:
By the time it'd be viable to do so, the British really don't need to, those lands are free.
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The Japanese were divided during the time the Spanish owned all of Latin America though, so that's a start. Maybe England could invade individual clans.
 
Hashoosh

Hashoosh

zeppelinair said:
The Japanese were divided during the time the Spanish owned all of Latin America though, so that's a start. Maybe England could invade individual clans.
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And whatever England sent would have no hope in hell of colonising Japan in the 18th century or earlier...

There isn't enough of an advantage on the English side (by this time, anyways) to negate the sheer numerical supremacy of the natives (who would be protected by the Tokugawa). There's also the issue of supplying the expedition...
 

mlp

Hashoosh said:
And whatever England sent would have no hope in hell of colonising Japan in the 18th century or earlier...

There isn't enough of an advantage on the English side (by this time, anyways) to negate the sheer numerical supremacy of the natives (who would be protected by the Tokugawa). There's also the issue of supplying the expedition...
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How about the Dutch? I just read today that the Dutch East India Company was the richest in history - maybe they can fund a colonial expedition into Japan after their independence.
 

Emperor Constantine

Realistically there is NO chance of a European nation conquering Japan at that time. Chances are Japan would rally against a foreign invader, potentially ending the Warring states era early. The main reason Spain (for example) won in the Americas was the vast difference in technology, the weakening of the native peoples by European disease and a civil war (in the Inca empire). As far as I can remember the Europeans never spread any major epidemics to Asia, so no weakening there. Japan was technologically on about even ground with the Europeans at this point, so no advantage their either. The only thing would be the warring states and as I said above there's no guarantee that an invasion wouldn't trigger a Japanese unification against foreigners.

As for Korea, it was a protectorate of China. No way the Europeans are going to want a war with the Chinese at that point. As for the Dutch, again this isn't a war with barbarians fighting with spears. It would be a war between relative equals. The amount of money it would take to transport the tens of thousands of troops, supplies and ammo needed to launch an invasion of either nation would vastly outlay the potential gains.
 

mlp

Emperor Constantine said:
Realistically there is NO chance of a European nation conquering Japan at that time. Chances are Japan would rally against a foreign invader, potentially ending the Warring states era early. The main reason Spain (for example) won in the Americas was the vast difference in technology, the weakening of the native peoples by European disease and a civil war (in the Inca empire). As far as I can remember the Europeans never spread any major epidemics to Asia, so no weakening there. Japan was technologically on about even ground with the Europeans at this point, so no advantage their either. The only thing would be the warring states and as I said above there's no guarantee that an invasion wouldn't trigger a Japanese unification against foreigners.
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The Japanese were introduced to the idea of matchlock firearms by the Portuguese in the 1540s - I presume that even after that time firearms were used only by some strong clans. Some smaller, weaker clans must be up for grabs for either the Portuguese, English or Dutch(or even the Spanish, who knows) or be forced to become protectorates under colonial rule. It's impossible that all of Japan would rise up against a foreign power if it suits their needs - even in Korea some willingly stood with the Japanese against the government.
 

TRH

zeppelinair said:
The Japanese were introduced to the idea of matchlock firearms by the Portuguese in the 1540s - I presume that even after that time firearms were used only by some strong clans. Some smaller, weaker clans must be up for grabs for either the Portuguese, English or Dutch(or even the Spanish, who knows) or be forced to become protectorates under colonial rule. It's impossible that all of Japan would rise up against a foreign power if it suits their needs - even in Korea some willingly stood with the Japanese against the government.
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I don't think any European power could exert force in the Far East even in the tens of thousands strong until well into the 1600's, if not later. By that point, domestic Japanese gun production rivaled, if not exceeded, that of any European power of the time. Honestly, the more I read about pre-Meiji Japan, the more I get the impression that if Japan ever fell behind the West in any significant way, it wasn't until the early 1800's, and didn't last all that long. And of course, Korean collaboration with Japanese occupiers only came after decades of Japanese intrigue that the Korean government couldn't very well stamp out because of the threat of Japanese force. The Japanese would have had a much easier time rooting out European-supported subversion in their own country if it came to that.
 

Tyr

I don't see why people would conquer Japan just for copper.
Tea is a definite possibility though. There are a lot of rich tea growing areas in Japan and we saw fine well that the Europeans really went all out for India.
Other than that....perhaps Europeans could develop a taste for wasabi? :p

TRH said:
I don't think any European power could exert force in the Far East even in the tens of thousands strong until well into the 1600's, if not later. By that point, domestic Japanese gun production rivaled, if not exceeded, that of any European power of the time. Honestly, the more I read about pre-Meiji Japan, the more I get the impression that if Japan ever fell behind the West in any significant way, it wasn't until the early 1800's, and didn't last all that long. And of course, Korean collaboration with Japanese occupiers only came after decades of Japanese intrigue that the Korean government couldn't very well stamp out because of the threat of Japanese force. The Japanese would have had a much easier time rooting out European-supported subversion in their own country if it came to that.
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Yep.
Though in the west people assume Edo Japan was stupid in deciding to close itself off and it just stayed stagnant and stuck in the medieval period until America forced it to open, in Japan it is regarded as a golden age of prosperity. During the Edo period Japan advanced a hell of a lot.
They developed very proficient pre-industrial pseudo-capitalist systems and Tokyo/Yedo developed into the biggest city in the world in the 18th century.
 
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