Earliest Atomic Power

Reading back through Rhoades 'The Making of the Atomic Bomb' I was struck by the apparent pedestrian level of technology needed to refine the Uranium & set up a working reactor. If I am wrong here let me know the details & recommended reading. Thx.

But, continuing for the moment; one of the other items that struck me was the very low level of funding of research into 'radioactives' from the earliest days circa 1900. Which brings me to my core question; given a full court press in funding & a organization akin to Edisons invention factory, or the research labs of the new chemical industry, could the research spanning from Rutherfords work to Fermis first pile be compressed from four decades to maybe two or three? That is could atomic generation of steam power be achieved by 1935 or earlier?
 
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marathag

Banned
Seals that hold up to the heated UF6 gas, the step to both electromagnetic and gaseous diffusion, is problematic before Teflon in 1938

Next is even gaseous diffusion requires vast amounts of electricity to run thousands of compressors, Hydropower is best, but is doable with a lot of coal fired plants.

Then, even with close tolerance compressors, pure nickel electroplated onto stainless steel tubing with Teflon to seal things, even then there is some leakage. The compressor stages needed cooling, so you needed a refrigerant that would not contaminate the UF6. DuPont again, this time with Freon
 

Delta Force

Banned
An aqueous homogenous reactor could be an interesting design. They can operate using materials that wouldn't have been too difficult to acquire in the 1900s, with heavy water versions capable of using uranium salts, including uranium sulfate, a byproduct of uranium mining, and uranyl nitrate, a material commonly used in early photography, and still listed in the order catalogs for Kodak and other photographic corporations in the 1930s. The heavy water AHR has the lowest fissile material requirement of any nuclear reactor, and AHRs are considered the safest nuclear reactor design. However, they have problems with corrosion, and commonly used exotic materials to prevent this problem. Some were even gold plated.

The AHR can be used as a breeder reactor, so it's possible that early AHRs could have gone from being a useful tool for early nuclear scientists to a means of creating fissile materials for atomic programs. If the AHR had been popular as a laboratory device, the molten salt reactor might have been theorized earlier, and perhaps have become the standard for the industry. One reason why the MSR failed to catch on was because boiler and later turbine technologies were far more developed than nuclear salts.
 
Seals that hold up to the heated UF6 gas, the step to both electromagnetic and gaseous diffusion, is problematic before Teflon in 1938

Next is even gaseous diffusion requires vast amounts of electricity to run thousands of compressors, Hydropower is best, but is doable with a lot of coal fired plants.

You are refering to enrichment of low 235 Uranium into higher 'fissile' concentrations?
 

marathag

Banned
You are refering to enrichment of low 235 Uranium into higher 'fissile' concentrations?

Even to LEU, 1%, you needed all that.

Getting higher just took many more trips thru the stages.

Before 1938, it is just so expensive and difficult, I can't see anyone doing U235 enrichment.

Reactors to make Plutonium or Thorium is so much easier
 
Physics as a academic study in the US was lagging behind Europe up to the 1930 & had not caught up by 1940. Leaving aside for the moment a early US PoD; What European nation was best positioned from 1900 to take advantage of a well funded research effort? All I am aware of is the Cure research in France, and the very small and fragmented studies in Germany, Austira, & Italy. Any ideas of where the most fertile ground is?
 

marathag

Banned
Keeping Nazis and Fascists out of the picture...

1. Germany
tie Italy, France
until the 1930s where the US comes on strong, replacing the UK in this slot
 

This is probably your best bet. For POD how to get a headstart in the production of heavy water you might use an idea I had for my Martian timeline.

"Arthur Lamb and Richard Lee were trying to improve measurements of the density of water at the New York University. This was seen as an important quantity to know accurately because of its importance as a scientific standard. They were attempting an accuracy of 200 ppb, but were not able to get agreement between samples taken from diverse geographical locations to better than 800 ppb.
They speculated that the novel concept of isotopes, as developed by Frederick Soddy and Kasimir Fajans, that had been recently been announced, might be behind their problem. He showed that a radioactive element may have more than one atomic mass though the chemical properties are identical. He named this concept isotope meaning „same place“.

Now get Kristian Birkeland aware of there idea and on board with the Norsk Hydro dam and you can kickstart an early mass production of deuterium. The only tricky part then is to get the neutron discovered.

Still once these pieces are in place anybody, including Belgium can become a nuclear power. (If they discover their uranium early enought, Butterflies I guess...)
 

Delta Force

Banned
Physics as a academic study in the US was lagging behind Europe up to the 1930 & had not caught up by 1940. Leaving aside for the moment a early US PoD; What European nation was best positioned from 1900 to take advantage of a well funded research effort? All I am aware of is the Cure research in France, and the very small and fragmented studies in Germany, Austira, & Italy. Any ideas of where the most fertile ground is?

Many of the early nuclear scientists taught, studied, or were guests at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute at the University of Berlin at one point or another.
 
Keeping Nazis and Fascists out of the picture...

1. Germany
tie Italy, France
until the 1930s where the US comes on strong, replacing the UK in this slot

Depends then on how fast things develop. If the critical mass of knowledge occurs post 1934 it is rapidly decreasing in probablity in Germany. 'Hitlers Scientists' by John Cornwell is a outline of the destruction of physics and other research capability within nazi Germany.

Many of the early nuclear scientists taught, studied, or were guests at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute at the University of Berlin at one point or another.

If things progress fast enough, then perhaps "Jewish science" will become acceptable Aryan achievement by the nazi takeover.

Reading over the history of the Curie Institute I see the research was focused on Radium & application therof. For that organization to lead to atomic generated steam a early PoD, well before 1914 is needed. Something that causes the Curies to broaden their research, provides far more funds for staff, and which gains more interest from other French physicists. Lacking coal on the scale of Germany or Britain France could benefit from earlier atomic power. It is not entirely ASB for this broader research to occur. Uraniums radioactive properties were first demonstrated by Henri Becquerel in Paris. So in theory Uranium research could be undertaken by the energetic & productive Curies, were the money and desire to come early in the game.

For some reason it took until 1934 & Fermis experiments in Italy to suggest the energy that might be released by use of Uranium. It is not clear to me what research or technical lack led to the lag between Henri Becquerels discovery and Fermis 1934 research.
 
Reading back through Rhoades 'The Making of the Atomic Bomb' I was struck by the apparent pedestrian level of technology needed to refine the Uranium & set up a working reactor. If I am wrong here let me know the details & recommended reading. Thx.

But, continuing for the moment; one of the other items that struck me was the very low level of funding of research into 'radioactives' from the earliest days circa 1900. Which brings me to my core question; given a full court press in funding & a organization akin to Edisons invention factory, or the research labs of the new chemical industry, could the research spanning from Rutherfords work to Fermis first pile be compressed from four decades to maybe two or three? That is could atomic generation of steam power be achieved by 1935 or earlier?

First question: Why on earth would anyone invest that kind of money in what was then the purest of pure research? It would be like spending 10s of billions a year on Warp Drive technology - there's a couple of theoretical ideas that might bear fruit some century - but they mostly involve manipulating gravity in ways that we can't even start doing.

Until you know what a neutron is, you can't study it. Until you see (and believe) fission happening, you can't even START on such a project.

Second question: Where are they going to get the money during the Depression?

Third question: if by "atomic generation of steam power" you mean viable electricity production, remember that they took about a decade longer than the Bomb iOTL.

Fourth question: what do you mean by 'refining'? Isotope separation is really nasty chemistry. Not what I'd call 'pedestrian' at all.
 
First question: Why on earth would anyone invest that kind of money in what was then the purest of pure research? It would be like spending 10s of billions a year on Warp Drive technology - there's a couple of theoretical ideas that might bear fruit some century - but they mostly involve manipulating gravity in ways that we can't even start doing.

Not sure what this is aimed at, and what the reference to a science fiction item connects to.

Until you know what a neutron is, you can't study it. Until you see (and believe) fission happening, you can't even START on such a project.

How does this prevent the research of the previous 40 years?

Second question: Where are they going to get the money during the Depression?

Third question: if by "atomic generation of steam power" you mean viable electricity production, remember that they took about a decade longer than the Bomb iOTL.

Fourth question: what do you mean by 'refining'? Isotope separation is really nasty chemistry. Not what I'd call 'pedestrian' at all.

It fairly clear at this point you have either not read the OP or given it any thought.
 
Not sure what this is aimed at, and what the reference to a science fiction item connects to.
Because until you see Uranium atoms fissioning, Atomic power is purely that - science fiction.

Seriously. There is very, very little they can study to take them to 'atomic power'. And what they CAN study takes them in the direction of things like RTG (radioisotope thermal generators), rather than power reactors.
How does this prevent the research of the previous 40 years?
Why would anybody spend billions of dollars then on pure research. Because that's all it is.


It fairly clear at this point you have either not read the OP or given it any thought.
No, I read the OP, and gave thought. You clearly know nothing of physics - if you want to trade insults.
 
More helpfully.

Let us suppose that some time in 1905 (publication of the Rutherford theory of Radium decay/transmutation of that element), someone managed to convince a government to spend millions or billions on 'atomic power'.

Now. We know by that point, that radium gives off heat, that isotopes exist, and that some isotopes of some elements also release radiation.

We also know that most natural elements have both stable and unstable isotopes.

However, natural radioactive materials are exceedingly rare, or emit relatively little energy. Radium, a relatively common one apparently occurs at levels of grams per tonne of Uraninite (a Uranium ore of mostly UO2). Whereas Uranium and Thorium in a natural state aren't even particularly warm.

So. We can mine thousands of tonnes of Uranium ore to get kilo or so of Radium which could possibly boil minuscule amounts of water to run a steam engine that produced, what, a few Watts of electricity?

So natural Radium isn't the way to go.

Sooo...
You could try bombarding Lead with Oxygen atoms (or probably something a touch heavier), and separate out the resulting individual atoms of Radium.

You could try bombarding Molybdenum with protons to get *Technetium (OK, it hasn't been discovered yet. But the mere fact that it HASN'T means that it must have only radioactive isotopes. And the theoretical properties of 'ekamanganese' are relatively well understood, so being able to separate out the new element when it has been created is straightforward.

However, both these require particle accelerators - which haven't been invented yet. Well, that's OK, we know basically what's needed, in terms of theory - ions and electrons have been accelerated to relatively low energies (e.g. in Xray machines - the Xrays are produced by accelerated electrons).

However, it turns out that when OTL atom smashers were first built about 1930, they needed 600kV voltage. Which wasn't available anywhere. Fortunately Livermore got his hands on a recently published article on how to (theoretically) up high tension voltages.

So. If you want to go this route, you need to first develop the high voltage electronics a decade early. Doable, no doubt, but bloody expensive.


So. Once you've spent millions on buying pitchblende ore, monopolizing the world's supply of radium, and sending exploration parties out to find new radium mines around the world, and build mines in these remote locations; and spent more millions and millions on, firstly developing high voltage electronics, invented cycltrons (or other particle accelerators), built new power plants to power all this; THEN you can start running your transmutation machines to create artificial Radium and Technetium.

If you're lucky, you'll be getting microgram amounts.


OK. So this isn't the way to go. What else do we know. Well, how about fusion? That should be easy, right?

Well, iOTL, the masses of light elements were only measured sufficiently accurately in 1929.

Let's suppose that the Kaiser, or whoever is funding this says 'hey, i've got a few billion marks I have no use for, let's set up a lab to measure the masses of elements to unprecedented degrees. My 5 year old daughter insists that the sun must be fusing hydrogen, let's see if that's even possible.'

So they start hydrogen fusion work. Since that STILL doesn't produce net power today, with modern tech, you can guess how likely it is that it would work in the 30s.

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So, any foreseeable way forward at the time would be a VERY expensive dead end. In fact that amount of money wasted on that stuff would discredit pure research, and likely DELAY the discovery of fission. IMO.

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Note, too, that the whole 'spend billions on pure research' is a RESULT of the atomic bomb. Before that, the closest you got was things like the RN sending Cooke to Tahiti to observe the Transit of Venus, which is a much, much smaller scale project.
 
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