Could the Low Countries stay united?

ArmageddonZ4747 · Feb 6, 2015

Could the Netherlands stay united,having with them Belgium,Luxembourg (Greater Luxembourg),Calais,Eastern Frisia (With all the Islands) and the entire Moresnet? (Including Prussian Moresnet)
POD can be anytime from when the Low Countries became part of the Habsburg Crown to today.
What could be this country's power?Compare it with another state,if it makes you have an easier answer to this.

DTF955Baseballfan · Feb 6, 2015

If the Hapsburgs are willing to marry outside the family and have more heirs, you could see a branch splitting off and ruling it, but the Reformation makes this problematic, as I would suspect that one reason for the Dutch rebellion was becasue they were Protestant.

Could one of the Hapsburg princes turn Protestant? I know in the late 1500s there were a few who were quite tolerant of Protestantism. Perhaps one of them in the late 1500s is shipped off to the Low Countries to rule it as a pr4agmatic way to keep that area from rebelling.

In time, one of those princes could then declare himself Protestant for political reasons, perhaps as a counter agaisnt French power since they are chasing out their Huguenot population. Eventually, this religous tolerance causes them to break with the rest of the Hapsburgs but gives them lots of credibility within the Austrian Netherlands itself.

or, is such pragmatism too much to ask of 17th century Hapsburgs?

ArmageddonZ4747 · Feb 6, 2015

DTF955Baseballfan said:
If the Hapsburgs are willing to marry outside the family and have more heirs, you could see a branch splitting off and ruling it, but the Reformation makes this problematic, as I would suspect that one reason for the Dutch rebellion was becasue they were Protestant.

Could one of the Hapsburg princes turn Protestant? I know in the late 1500s there were a few who were quite tolerant of Protestantism. Perhaps one of them in the late 1500s is shipped off to the Low Countries to rule it as a pr4agmatic way to keep that area from rebelling.

In time, one of those princes could then declare himself Protestant for political reasons, perhaps as a counter agaisnt French power since they are chasing out their Huguenot population. Eventually, this religous tolerance causes them to break with the rest of the Hapsburgs but gives them lots of credibility within the Austrian Netherlands itself.

or, is such pragmatism too much to ask of 17th century Hapsburgs?

What if they divide it from the rest of the crown before Protestantism is born?Or maybe someway the Netherlands never become protestant?

Janprimus · Feb 6, 2015

Actually the revolt started out being supported by Protestants and Catholics, however religious radicals on both sides eventually caused a rift between them.
Not to mention that in the early republic there still were many regions with a Catholic majority, however those in power were Protestants and Catholics were second rate citizens (Catholic emancipation lasted until the 1960's, though arguably the emancipation was complete by the late 1920's).

Still eventually roughly 40% of the population of the Republic stayed Catholic and in the Generality Lands* (and some other areas) they were a clear majority.

(*= Brabant, Limburg, Guelders and Flanders of the State)

As for Pragmatic Habsburgs, the Austrian branch did a decent job. They bided their time, at one point most of their Austrian Lands was Lutheran, until they started with the Counter-Reformation, which was rather successful.

Alternatively maybe all XVII Netherlands manage to break away from the Spanish Habsburgs and form a Republic. This would require a settlement, where each province (former duchy, county etc.) can choose their own dominant religion.

Janprimus · Feb 6, 2015

ArmageddonZ4747 said:
What if they divide it from the rest of the crown before Protestantism is born?Or maybe someway the Netherlands never become protestant?

Charles V's daughter Mary was married to her cousin, Ferdinand's eldest son, Maximilian II.
Charles apparently contemplated to give the Burgundian inheritance to them (Maximilian by virtue of his wife).

Perhaps he goes through with it, then by necessity the Austrian Habsburgs probably need to make more concessions than the Spanish Habsburgs had to do IOTL.
It wouldn't mean they won't end up eventually supporting the Counter Reformation (which also reformed the Catholic church), but they will bide their time.

ArmageddonZ4747 · Feb 6, 2015

Janprimus said:
Actually the revolt started out being supported by Protestants and Catholics, however religious radicals on both sides eventually caused a rift between them.
Not to mention that in the early republic there still were many regions with a Catholic majority, however those in power were Protestants and Catholics were second rate citizens (Catholic emancipation lasted until the 1960's, though arguably the emancipation was complete by the late 1920's).

Still eventually roughly 40% of the population of the Republic stayed Catholic and in the Generality Lands* (and some other areas) they were a clear majority.

(*= Brabant, Limburg, Guelders and Flanders of the State)

As for Pragmatic Habsburgs, the Austrian branch did a decent job. They bided their time, at one point most of their Austrian Lands was Lutheran, until they started with the Counter-Reformation, which was rather successful.

Alternatively maybe all XVII Netherlands manage to break away from the Spanish Habsburgs and form a Republic. This would require a settlement, where each province (former duchy, county etc.) can choose their own dominant religion.

Mh,yeah,maybe with all the provinces breaking away it would be easier than with other PODs

ArmageddonZ4747 · Feb 13, 2015

A little revival

I'm taking a few calculating.Excluding Butterflies,an United Low Countries state could have a population of 33 milions people,jeez,some more than half of France.This means that this country could have potential to be a great power,unlike Netherlands,Belgium or Luxembourg.It could amount a considerable power and it has some of the greatest ports in Europe.Also it is created early it already is one of the greatest cultural points of Europe.It could even be a buffer between France,Germany and GB.

Julius Caesar · Feb 13, 2015

I'm not sure how plausible it is, but could they have formed the country of Benelux instead of it just making it a customs union?

(If it isn't possible, please don't ream me out.)

wietze · Feb 13, 2015

ArmageddonZ4747 said:
I'm taking a few calculating.Excluding Butterflies,an United Low Countries state could have a population of 33 milions people,jeez,some more than half of France.This means that this country could have potential to be a great power,unlike Netherlands,Belgium or Luxembourg.It could amount a considerable power and it has some of the greatest ports in Europe.Also it is created early it already is one of the greatest cultural points of Europe.It could even be a buffer between France,Germany and GB.

do you mean a great power nowadays?

since the Netherlands in past had the status of great power, and for a while was one of the most powerful countries in europe (we even successfully invaded Britain!)

ArmageddonZ4747 · Feb 13, 2015

wietze said:
do you mean a great power nowadays?

since the Netherlands in past had the status of great power, and for a while was one of the most powerful countries in europe (we even successfully invaded Britain!)

Maybe not a great power at Germany's levels,but still a country with significant geopolitical relevancy,like Italy or Spain.
I know about the Netherlands,i think the Low Countries united,in this way could be just two things:
1. Netherlands on Steroids
2. A major war-player in European History totally different from our Netherlands.

Julius Caesar said:
I'm not sure how plausible it is, but could they have formed the country of Benelux instead of it just making it a customs union?

(If it isn't possible, please don't ream me out.)

Possible,but i think it should be based on two or three things:
1.More people in the three countries wanting to be important in the international situation.
2.More people in the Flanders wanting to unite with Netherlands
3.More history passed united,maybe?

wietze · Feb 13, 2015

a netherlands that big, especially from the start (the XVII provinces staying together) will have huge repercussions.
The northern netherlands alone was pretty powerful, them combined will do even more, especially since they border on france then they will either strike a deal/alliance with france (unlikely, unless the Huguenots win). So apart from having a big navy, they will have to keep up a good army too.

the united provinces was already at the forefront of military tech development at the time, and considering what was going on, invention of the levee-en-masse is not impossible.
minimal they will keep east-frisia and some rhine counties, but i expect some east ward expansion (or states that join up with the UP out of free will, just to protect from other german states).

if the 17 stay together, this means that the OTL 80-year war of liberation was decisively won much earlier, this deprives spain much earlier from a large chunk of her income
so succeeding around 1580 instead of 1648

ArmageddonZ4747 · Feb 13, 2015

wietze said:
if the 17 stay together, this means that the OTL 80-year war of liberation was decisively won much earlier, this deprives spain much earlier from a large chunk of her income
so succeeding around 1580 instead of 1648

Not necessarily from the eighty years war,but yes,pretty much all what you said

Westphalian · Feb 13, 2015

wietze said:
a netherlands that big, especially from the start (the XVII provinces staying together) will have huge repercussions.
The northern netherlands alone was pretty powerful, them combined will do even more, especially since they border on france then they will either strike a deal/alliance with france (unlikely, unless the Huguenots win). So apart from having a big navy, they will have to keep up a good army too.

the united provinces was already at the forefront of military tech development at the time, and considering what was going on, invention of the levee-en-masse is not impossible.
minimal they will keep east-frisia and some rhine counties, but i expect some east ward expansion (or states that join up with the UP out of free will, just to protect from other german states).

if the 17 stay together, this means that the OTL 80-year war of liberation was decisively won much earlier, this deprives spain much earlier from a large chunk of her income
so succeeding around 1580 instead of 1648

If the NL are already free from Spanish domination when the religious comflicts in the HRE erupt into a full war, the Hague might decide to get involved. Maybe Denmark and Sweden are both embroiled in another war and cannot act as saviour of the protestants, but the NNL can?

LordKalvan · Feb 14, 2015

A "big" Netherlands would be necessarily involved in the German wars, besides the usual worry of the French on the southern border. It would have neither the benefit of secure natural borders nor the man power to compete on the battlefield with much more populous states. It would need both a large army (and the necessary corollary of expensive fortifications) and a large navy (to protect commerce and far flung colonial holdings). Can they manage this kind of demands even assuming the Netherlands enjoy the benefit of an advanced fiscal system? France could not (although potentially richer than any other country in Europe and more populous to booth); England's biggest advantage was being an island and not being forced to pay for a large standing army; Spain empire was huge, but its fiscal policies were abysmal and the demands of the empire proved too much; the Austrian branch of the Habsburg did not have the kind of revenues that Spain enjoyed, in addition to many other problematic issues to deal with.