Why didn't Christian Western Europe develop significant Muslim minorities in the Middle Ages, in the same way that the same region had Jewish communities, or how the Islamic World maintained Christian, Jewish, Mandaean, Yazidi, Zoroastrian, and Druze minorities? How could Muslim communities flourish in Western Europe north of Spain to the same extent that the Jews did, and would such communities more likely comprise locsl converts or, like Ashkenazi Jews, at least a founder population of migrants (Arabs, Moors, or even Persians from Iberia, North Africa, or Arabia)? When is the earliest such communitirs might develop?
Muslim Minorities in Christian Europe
- Thread starter pa_dutch
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Main reason for lack of Medieval Muslim communities is that Jews has spreaded on their areas centuries before Islam was even exist. And some minority communities survived in Muslim world because they were usually much more tolerate than European rulers. And Christian probably beared Jews long time because they didn't try convert and conquer like Muslims.
AussieHawker
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The Muslim world had other religious minorities because they were the conquers while the Christians were the 'defenders'.
The Romani managed to move in and find room after the establishment of the Jews, and although most of them professed to believe in Christianity, they were highly syncretic.
Largely because Islam did not have preexisting self sustaining communities in Europe like the Jews of the Christians in the Middle East (or atleast ones that last, Sicily could conceivably hold onto a Muslim minority, same with Spain, it just took specific action to ethnically cleanse them).
This. There were pre-existing Christian communities in the Middle East when the Muslims got there. Christianity was entrenched in Europe by Mohammad's time.
Well, stateless people like the Jews and Roma were somewhat unique in that, as they had no presumed allegiances to other rulers, they could be tolerated moving in by medieval standards. In an era where there are large Muslim empires and Church and State are inseparable, a Christian prince can't allow Muslims to do the same.
Couldn't a stateless Muslim ethnic group move into Western Europe just as the Jews did early on, or as the Tatars did later on in Eastern European history? Maybe a tribe of Bedouins or displaced Berbers from North Africa?
Some Moors at odds with the rulers in Cordoba?
I'd argue it was a relative form of tolerance: non-muslim had to pay a special tax after all.Lalli said:
I agree with this mostly.eliphas8 said:
It should be noted though that Spain had a pretty sizeable Muslim minority for a long time. But that's linked to Spanish history: Spain was conquered by the Muslims in the 711 and Southern Spain remained under Muslim rule until the Reconquista which only ended with the fall of Granada in 1492. As a result of this, you had a pretty sizeable muslim minority in Spain called Moriscos. Sadly for them, the sixteenth century wasn't kind thanks to the Spanish Inquisition and to State-promoted forced conversions (several edicts that basically said "convert or leave" were promoted). That being said, that last part as to be put in context: most of the sixteenth century state in Europe were building themselves around the lines of "One King, One Faith, One Law": this in turn is what led to the Religious Wars between Catholic and Protestants later on.
Sicily probably had a pretty decent muslim minority too: the Christian Normans reconquered it in the XIth Century but I vaguely recall that Frederick II has a few muslim shcolars in his court. That said, the community probably went extinct quicker thanks to the shorter Muslim rule compared to Spain (and likely because Sicily is rather close to Rome).
A Muslim minority surviving in Christian Spain and/or Portugal would be interesting in itself, but somewhat too late for what I'm proposing, as the end of the Reconquista was pretty late in the Middle Ages.
In fact, by the time of the Reconquista, there was already an established Muslim minority in a part of Christian Europe that continues to this day - The Tatars of Poland and Lithuania who were permitted to settle there more than a century before the fall of Granada. That's a little bit too far east, but it's perhaps a good model for a Muslim minority in Christian Western Europe (by which I mean France, the Low Countries, Germany and the Alps, Italy, Scandinavia, and the British Isles) - The Tatars maintain their culture and their religion but have adopted many habits from the surrounding, mainstream population - Language, ideas about education, architecture styles, cuisine, and so on.
Surviving Muslims in Sicily is an interesting idea, and I wonder if any of them could seek asylum in France or Germany under a sympathetic noble there?
Alternate History
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IIRC, many Muslim-majority states, including the Ottoman Empire, actually avoided proselytizing their own minorities so they could continue to collect the jizya. Just thought I'd mention that interesting little detail.
One could make the argument that there are people who converted to avoid paying the jizya. So basically, there wasn't really a need to proselytize because the jizya in itself was more or less pushing people to convert.Alternate History said:
That being said, I know very little on the subject itself. It would be interesting to see how high the jizya was and compare it to how much could be earned by non-muslims at the time to determine the impact of that tax.
Again, I'm trying to avoid bringing too much of the Iberian Peninsula into the discussion due to it being an actual part of the Islamic World during the Middle Ages, though it would be interesting if practicing, outwardly Muslim communities survived there, too. I'm more interested in Muslim communities coexisting amongst Christian majorities in the lands north of Spain (though also including Italy), the way Jews have, or similar to how Tatars do in Eastern Europe and Hui people do in China.
Maybe if the Muslim community in Southern France had survived: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraxinet
Maybe a Emirate of Al Andaluz...
Maybe a Emirate of Al Andaluz largest and successful throughout the Middle Ages ...
A new Hispanic-Gallic Umayyad Caliphate that does not to remain isolated behind the Pyrenees, it might conquer and achieve fully assimilate (and not partially as Otl), Septimany, Basque Country (Gascony) and Provence; preventing the Christian Reconquest of Spain and the Carolingian Empire can be 'born.
This state even though then splits and perhaps could be conquered; would create large Muslim communities impossible to eradicate in Aquitania and Iberia (like minimum).
Not to mention the possibility of establishing Islamic communities there where small commercial factories of Al Andaluz established outside its borders.
Maybe a Emirate of Al Andaluz largest and successful throughout the Middle Ages ...
A new Hispanic-Gallic Umayyad Caliphate that does not to remain isolated behind the Pyrenees, it might conquer and achieve fully assimilate (and not partially as Otl), Septimany, Basque Country (Gascony) and Provence; preventing the Christian Reconquest of Spain and the Carolingian Empire can be 'born.
This state even though then splits and perhaps could be conquered; would create large Muslim communities impossible to eradicate in Aquitania and Iberia (like minimum).
Not to mention the possibility of establishing Islamic communities there where small commercial factories of Al Andaluz established outside its borders.
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The only realistic scenario for this (short of a Muslim conquest) would be deliberate settlement. Southern Europe had Muslim minorities in Christian countries until they decided to throw them out or massacre them, so the precedent isn't too great, but it would certainly be conceivable in theory for Muslim refugees to be invited to settle somewhere.
Now, where would you get a willing population that wouldn't just turn to the Ottoman Empire? That's a harder question. Maybe the Sicilian and Iberian Muslims - legacy of Fatimid dominance - are Shia? That would make them less of a problem in foreign policy (not likely to work with the Sunni Ottomans, especially after their antagonism with Safavid Persia). So delay the expulsion a little, but make existence under Habsburg rule burdensome. Then, expulsion - where to go? The Netherlands are willing to take some - they took Jews, what's the difference? - and others will go to Poland and some northern German territories seeking to develop underpopulated areas. The whole thing is a footnote in history, though the migrants bring some valuable skills with them (majolica pottery manufacture, silk weaving, horticulture).
Now, where would you get a willing population that wouldn't just turn to the Ottoman Empire? That's a harder question. Maybe the Sicilian and Iberian Muslims - legacy of Fatimid dominance - are Shia? That would make them less of a problem in foreign policy (not likely to work with the Sunni Ottomans, especially after their antagonism with Safavid Persia). So delay the expulsion a little, but make existence under Habsburg rule burdensome. Then, expulsion - where to go? The Netherlands are willing to take some - they took Jews, what's the difference? - and others will go to Poland and some northern German territories seeking to develop underpopulated areas. The whole thing is a footnote in history, though the migrants bring some valuable skills with them (majolica pottery manufacture, silk weaving, horticulture).
Others have already explained why there were more minorities in Muslim land, so will not go over that.
If you want to be picky, there still is to this day a muslim minority in Russia, Kazan for example, the third biggest city in Russia, lies in the Republic of Tatarstan (so Tatars, obviously) has close to a 50/50 split between Russia Orthodox and Sunni Islam.
If you want it in southern Europe, then... maybe the Arabs hold Sicily for longer? Or maybe try to lessen the expulsions that happened after the collapse of the Ottomans. Alternatively have some Muslim branch be so ill treated and persecuted by Sunni/Shiite followers that they decide to take the chance and go to Europe.
If you want to be picky, there still is to this day a muslim minority in Russia, Kazan for example, the third biggest city in Russia, lies in the Republic of Tatarstan (so Tatars, obviously) has close to a 50/50 split between Russia Orthodox and Sunni Islam.
If you want it in southern Europe, then... maybe the Arabs hold Sicily for longer? Or maybe try to lessen the expulsions that happened after the collapse of the Ottomans. Alternatively have some Muslim branch be so ill treated and persecuted by Sunni/Shiite followers that they decide to take the chance and go to Europe.
I think it's important to highlight that muslim minorities in Western Europe (Spain, Portugal, Sicily, France, etc.) didn't simply "die out". They were purely expelled, at once, by the Christian rulers. Thus, a parallel with Christians in the Middle East is impossible, given the dhimmi status.
The same happened with the jews (iirc in France the jews were expelled and "recalled" more than once, and jews were forbidden to enter England throughout most of the Middle Ages).
What makes this scenario impossible is: Muslims had very little to offer (money-wise) to the European rulers if compared to the jews and Muslims wouldn't go to Christian nations if they have all Dar al Islam to immigrate (Besides the Ottoman Empire they have all North Africa to occupy; as a matter of fact, most moriscos went to Morocco.)
The same happened with the jews (iirc in France the jews were expelled and "recalled" more than once, and jews were forbidden to enter England throughout most of the Middle Ages).
What makes this scenario impossible is: Muslims had very little to offer (money-wise) to the European rulers if compared to the jews and Muslims wouldn't go to Christian nations if they have all Dar al Islam to immigrate (Besides the Ottoman Empire they have all North Africa to occupy; as a matter of fact, most moriscos went to Morocco.)