WI: Britain sits out WW1?
- Thread starter Emperor Palpatine
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TFSmith121
Banned
Europe is brutalized by the Germans and their allies
Europe is brutalized by the Germans and their allies and no one, including most of the Empire, thinks Britain's word is worth the paper it's printed on?
Best,
Europe is brutalized by the Germans and their allies and no one, including most of the Empire, thinks Britain's word is worth the paper it's printed on?
Best,
LordKalvert
Banned
Germany conquers Europe and gains control over every fleet on the continent.
They finish not only their Dreadnoughts and Battle Cruisers but the Russian, French and Italians ones as well and in, short order, sink the British fleet and invade the Isles reducing the English to slavery like they did the rest of the continent. Maybe even worse since the British were hated more than anyone other than the French
They finish not only their Dreadnoughts and Battle Cruisers but the Russian, French and Italians ones as well and in, short order, sink the British fleet and invade the Isles reducing the English to slavery like they did the rest of the continent. Maybe even worse since the British were hated more than anyone other than the French
TFSmith121
Banned
You might think that;
You might think that; I couldn't possible comment.
It's a cliche, but:
Sir Humphrey: Minister, Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last five hundred years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now, when it's worked so well?
Hacker: That's all ancient history, surely?
Sir Humphrey: Yes, and current policy. We 'had' to break the whole thing [the EEC] up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing: set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch. The Foreign Office is terribly pleased; it's just like old times.
Hacker: But surely we're all committed to the European ideal?
Sir Humphrey: [chuckles] Really, Minister.
Hacker: If not, why are we pushing for an increase in the membership?
Sir Humphrey: Well, for the same reason. It's just like the United Nations, in fact; the more members it has, the more arguments it can stir up, the more futile and impotent it becomes.
Hacker: What appalling cynicism.
Sir Humphrey: Yes... We call it diplomacy, Minister.
best,
You might think that; I couldn't possible comment.
It's a cliche, but:
Sir Humphrey: Minister, Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last five hundred years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now, when it's worked so well?
Hacker: That's all ancient history, surely?
Sir Humphrey: Yes, and current policy. We 'had' to break the whole thing [the EEC] up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing: set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch. The Foreign Office is terribly pleased; it's just like old times.
Hacker: But surely we're all committed to the European ideal?
Sir Humphrey: [chuckles] Really, Minister.
Hacker: If not, why are we pushing for an increase in the membership?
Sir Humphrey: Well, for the same reason. It's just like the United Nations, in fact; the more members it has, the more arguments it can stir up, the more futile and impotent it becomes.
Hacker: What appalling cynicism.
Sir Humphrey: Yes... We call it diplomacy, Minister.
best,
You might think that; I couldn't possible comment.
It's a cliche, but:
Sir Humphrey: Minister, Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last five hundred years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now, when it's worked so well?
Hacker: That's all ancient history, surely?
Sir Humphrey: Yes, and current policy. We 'had' to break the whole thing [the EEC] up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing: set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch. The Foreign Office is terribly pleased; it's just like old times.
Hacker: But surely we're all committed to the European ideal?
Sir Humphrey: [chuckles] Really, Minister.
Hacker: If not, why are we pushing for an increase in the membership?
Sir Humphrey: Well, for the same reason. It's just like the United Nations, in fact; the more members it has, the more arguments it can stir up, the more futile and impotent it becomes.
Hacker: What appalling cynicism.
Sir Humphrey: Yes... We call it diplomacy, Minister.
best,
And people freak out when the US doesnt hold exactly to their agreements when it suits them when this was the policy of everybody for most of history.
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Hahahahaha, very funny! You know, there are people who realy think this would happen? Luckily you don't find them often on this forum. People actualy know their history here.
Riain
Banned
Unless Britain goes back on an official treaty then there is no perfidy, iirc Britain had no legal obligation to defend anyone in ww1.
Without ww1 Britain retains its huge foreign investment wealth and makes a profit from the war.
with russia on the sidelines, basically. war ends in early 1915 after france sues for peace and russia trows the towel with some colonial rearangements and maybe a "free" congress poland with a habsburg king.
where those ideas about germany brutalizing or conquering europe come from i have no idea.
Probably depends how well Moltke does in 1915. If he gets as far as Falky OTL, well, what do France and Russia have that would get Germany to drop Poland and perhaps Lithuania from their demands?
Most of the German colonies are still standing, except Togo and perhaps the Pacific ones. And having a few puppets between them and the Russians would be something Berlin would really really like.
The big losses would fall on Russia. France would probably end up paying heavy reparations (Wilhelmine Germany didn't do 'gracious in victory' very well), but Britain's policy would have to be reducing German gains in the West and safeguarding the Channel coast. Also, the Germans generally had a rather racist view of Slavs, which meant they could envision chopping up and redistributing Russian lands far more readily than doing the same to 'real people' like the French, Flemings or Walloons.
Colonies would certainly change hands.
Grey told that the Germans, he told the French something else and his own people, too.
Perfidous Albion, indeed.
RodentRevolution
Banned
The German Junker clique get to hold off Socialist control of the Reichstag a few more years.
Some of my maps of Europe in the 1920's are now only of interest to people on AH.com
Britain is possibly a bit richer
The Hungarians continue to sulk at the Austrians.
War correspondents sharpen their pencils and check their typewriters ready for the next war in Europe.
Some of my maps of Europe in the 1920's are now only of interest to people on AH.com
Britain is possibly a bit richer
The Hungarians continue to sulk at the Austrians.
War correspondents sharpen their pencils and check their typewriters ready for the next war in Europe.
It generaly comes from the people who think WWI Germans and Nazi's are the same. I blame a lack of focus on WWI in history lessons.
Well, it really depends on how much support that Mitteleuropa ideas gain among the German elites. You could end up with population expulsions and the creation of a specially enfranchised German elite in the Baltics and Poland with Eastern Europe as the German colonial empire.
Well depending on what happens the war probably lasts no later than 1915. France would probably fight on with the fall of Paris, while Germany found itself beating the Russians silly in the East.
I think the social issues inside Germany prevent her from fully carrying out some sort of Mitteleuropa scheme. In the East it would be doable (but unsustainable), but not in the West where any attempts by Germany to disembowel France would be rather strenuously objected to by the British.
The post war world sees Germany attempting to juggle an absurd number of balls garrisoning the Eastern puppet states, her Austrian ally probably going through a revolution at some point (which would fail thanks to German intervention), and France and Russia re-arming with the help of Britain, with Italy probably being thrown a few bones to keep them neutral or entice them into the pro-British camp.
Round Two would go considerably worse for the Germans as depending on when it happens (late 1930s probably, or early 40s) there are social issues in Germany which demand attention, their colonial empire is getting quite expensive, their only major ally on the continent is quite unstable, and Russia and France have re-armed and this time Britain is on side.
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However this is all pretty unlikely since the British recognized the German threat and we would have to have a POD from way back to make it likely that they would not want to come down hard on another would-be continental ruler.
I think the social issues inside Germany prevent her from fully carrying out some sort of Mitteleuropa scheme. In the East it would be doable (but unsustainable), but not in the West where any attempts by Germany to disembowel France would be rather strenuously objected to by the British.
The post war world sees Germany attempting to juggle an absurd number of balls garrisoning the Eastern puppet states, her Austrian ally probably going through a revolution at some point (which would fail thanks to German intervention), and France and Russia re-arming with the help of Britain, with Italy probably being thrown a few bones to keep them neutral or entice them into the pro-British camp.
Round Two would go considerably worse for the Germans as depending on when it happens (late 1930s probably, or early 40s) there are social issues in Germany which demand attention, their colonial empire is getting quite expensive, their only major ally on the continent is quite unstable, and Russia and France have re-armed and this time Britain is on side.
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However this is all pretty unlikely since the British recognized the German threat and we would have to have a POD from way back to make it likely that they would not want to come down hard on another would-be continental ruler.
BlondieBC
Banned
The empire is much richer than OTL, and has a decent chance to survive until today. You get a German dominated economic zone in Central Europe. France falls permanently to second class power.
I am a lot less sure that the war is over by early 1915, like some in the thread seem to think. By May 1915 ITTL, Austria will still be a mess in the east. Germany has a tight window to knock out France over the winter of 1914-15, before we are looking at a true negotiated peace or the knock campaign of 1916. There are a lot of logistical issues about resuming the attack in France in 1914/15 after the initial push.
You probably end up with 3 Great Powers. USA, UK, Germany. And then there allies. The Great Game continues.
The Central Powers win by 1916. at the latest. All in all I'd suspect that it would be largely considered the "2nd Franco-Prussian war", with Germany annexing Briey-Longwy after the war and carving out at lest Poland and Lithuania from the Russians. No revolution takes place in Russia in all likelyhood.
Germany is the master of the Continet, while the British leadership of the time gets praised for having the good sense to avoid getting involved in the Continental slaughter, and in doing so preserved the superower status of Britain for at least another century.
Germany is the master of the Continet, while the British leadership of the time gets praised for having the good sense to avoid getting involved in the Continental slaughter, and in doing so preserved the superower status of Britain for at least another century.