The Rise of the N.S.F.G.R.

[Kaiser James I]

What if the White Forces in the Russian Civil War triumphed over the Red Bolshevik Forces in the early to mid 1920s? What if Russian leaders like Baron Roman Nicolaus von Ungern-Sternberg, Admiral Aleksandr Vasiliyevich Kolchak, General Aleksei Maksimovich Kaledin, General Nikolai Nikolaevich Yudenich, and Lieutenant General Anton Ivanovich Denikin then set up a Fascist Russian State? What would be the consequences in World history if such a State like the National Socialist Federation of Greater Russia was created?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_civil_war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Ungern_von_Sternberg

[MerryPrankster]

Firstly, I would imagine a victorious White government would have to put down Ungern von Sternberg since he was a complete psychotic.

Also, why on Earth would they establish a National Socialist government? Methinks they'd try to restore the monarchy or call a Constituent Assembly, not establish a government based on an ideology that did not exist yet.

[Justin Pickard]

Okay, here's how I see it...

I think that the defeat of Bolshevik forces in the RCW would simply herald the start of another chapter in the conflict. The White forces were united by one thing: a common enemy. Without that, I think that fragmentation would have been inevitable, as the various armies begin to squabble amongst themselves. Monarchist turning against Republican,; Liberal against Reactionary.

In the unlikely circumstance of co-operation between the various White forces, I think that a Russian constituational monarchy would have probably been the only acceptable compromise.

If, however, the fighting went on, then I can easily see some kind of strong authority figure eventually emerging from the chaos - but a National Socialist with Federalist leanings? I think that 'socialism' would have been seen as something of a dirty word by this point, too intrinsically linked to the Bolshevik menance to be acceptable, whilst Federalism isn't unlikely to appease the threats of provincial secession. What you'd find here is probably some kind of conservative Nationalist Centralism, perhaps with pseudo-fascist leanings, but nowhere near as full-on as the Nazis.

Just an idea. I might do a short story or two in such a setting at some point in the future, as this is an area of personal interest, but I'd need to free up some time, and I'm unwilling to totally abandon the Anti-Habsburg project. Also, my military knowledge is a bit useless.

[Kaiser James I]

Maybe a constitutional monarchy would be created if the war was won early enough. If, however, the civil war continued into the mid to late 20s, a Fascist State could possibly be created along to lines of Fascist Italy if not Nazi Germany. Would a Fascist Russia ally with Germany and Italy in WWII? What would be the consequences?

[Justin Pickard]

Yes, I think that Fascist Italy would be a better analogy for this Russia.

I don't know whether there would even be a Fascist Germany in this timeline. One of the reasons for the rise of the Nazi Party in OTL was the threat of the spead of Communism. In TTL, there is no longer that threat.

[Kaiser James I]

So, would WWII happen at all? Or would it happen differently?

[Kaiser James I]

Originally Posted by Justin Pickard

Yes, I think that Fascist Italy would be a better analogy for this Russia.

I don't know whether there would even be a Fascist Germany in this timeline. One of the reasons for the rise of the Nazi Party in OTL was the threat of the spead of Communism. In TTL, there is no longer that threat.

So maybe instead of the N.S.F.G.R., a better title for that anlogy would be the Social Fascist Republic of Greater Russia(S.F.R.G.R.).

[Justin Pickard]

Originally Posted by Kaiser James I

So maybe instead of the N.S.F.G.R., a better title for that anlogy would be the Social Fascist Republic of Greater Russia(S.F.R.G.R.).

Drop the Social altogether. And Fascist states don't, on the whole, like to admit to being Fascist.

Throw in something about Nationalism.

How about ... the National Republic of Greater Russia, or the Greater Russian Nationalist Republic?

[MarkA]

I would think they would every bit as nasty as the Nazis. You do not need an ideology to be racist or homophobic or mysogenist or to hold any other obnoxious belief and most of these people were just that. No special name would result just the Russian Empire would do.

It is true that the White generals held different political beliefs ranging from slightly democratic to lunatic rightwing. Likely result would be a fragmentation of the Russian state into small mutually hostile warlord domains. Of course a strongman would also be likely so a unified state under authoritarian rule would result.

The Russian people would yearn for peace and stability so a strongman uniting the state under a personal rule would be the most likely. The most likely belief system of such an individual would be extreme right wing views coupled with autocratic rule.

[Scarecrow]

well there were cases of the White Russian forces in the RCW setting up anti-Jewish pogroms, or at least shooting Jews.

[Hapsburg]

Originally Posted by Justin Pickard

Drop the Social altogether. And Fascist states don't, on the whole, like to admit to being Fascist.

Throw in something about Nationalism.

How about ... the National Republic of Greater Russia, or the Greater Russian Nationalist Republic?

Or why not throw away the trappings of dipolmatic officiality to the wind, and call the nation simply, "Russia"? Considering the nationalist aims of it, and the ambiguity of the government (as you said, fascist states don't make it known in thier name, and it's not a republic nor a socialist state), it would be appropriate. Hell, Germany during the 2nd reich, Weimar, and 3rd reich eras was simply called "The German Realm", or "Deutsches Reich" in official terms. An extremist ultranationalist Russian state would do a similar thing, calling the country officially "Russia" or, "The State of Russia".

[Redbeard]

A fascist Russian state would have to contain something very Russian and be at least as different from Germany and Italy, as Germany and Italy were different.

I imagine something with a lot of Russian folkore, Orthodox Church and perhaps even urging back to pre Peter the Great times...and lots of vodka!

In efficiency it will probably be more like Italy than Germany, anyway long beards and vodka doesn't go well with industry. Jews and other ethnic minorities will have a very hard time, and minor neighbors ought to be nerrvous if without allies.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

[Kaiser James I]

Originally Posted by Justin Pickard

Drop the Social altogether. And Fascist states don't, on the whole, like to admit to being Fascist.

Throw in something about Nationalism.

How about ... the National Republic of Greater Russia, or the Greater Russian Nationalist Republic?

A Nationalist Republic of Russia sounds about right. China under Chiang Kai-shek was called Nationalist China, right? Then why not a Nationalist Russia of some sort?

[Wendell]

Originally Posted by Justin Pickard

Drop the Social altogether. And Fascist states don't, on the whole, like to admit to being Fascist.

Throw in something about Nationalism.

How about ... the National Republic of Greater Russia, or the Greater Russian Nationalist Republic?

How about the Sovereign Union of All Russias?

[Kaiser James I]

Or a Nationalist Union of All Russias.

[Wendell]

Originally Posted by Kaiser James I

Or a Nationalist Union of All Russias.

Being nationalistic is a given.

[MerryPrankster]

If the Whites break down and fight each other after the Bolsheviks are defeated, could a victorious warlord restore the monarchy but maintain all the power himself?

We might have a Russian Shogunate, although I really doubt they'd refer to the state as such. It'd be a Russian Empire with most of the power invested in the "Master of the Horse" or whatever the chief military official of St. Petersburg was called.

[AMBOMB]

The Mensheviks weren't fascists.

[Superdude]

Have communists rise to power in Germany and Italy, and have Fascists rise to power in Russia.

I think thats an interesting idea. Anybody else?

[Kaiser James I]

Originally Posted by Superdude

Have communists rise to power in Germany and Italy, and have Fascists rise to power in Russia.

I think thats an interesting idea. Anybody else?

Germany could have gone either way and so could Russia, but how could Italy go communist? Who would be the communist leader?