Denmark, Norway, and Sweden do not Convert to Christianity
- Thread starter Montgomerie Ward
- Start date
I'm almost leaning towards thinking that "Pretty difficult" is understating the difficulity, specially for Denmark (although in no way should this be seen as a statement suggesting that Norway and Sweden would have a much easier time).
There are several reasons why this is.
Frankish (and later HRE) missionaries flooding Scandinavia following Charlemange, with a huge stick in the Frankish armies in North Germany.
Cultural Assimination from settling in Normandy, the British Isles (Danelaw, Scottish isles and Dublin), Brittany and to a lesser degree Varangian Guards)
Cultural Importation form captured people/Items from pretty much anywhere you can get in boat, that including the rivers through Rus' to Constantinoble.
There are several reasons why this is.
Frankish (and later HRE) missionaries flooding Scandinavia following Charlemange, with a huge stick in the Frankish armies in North Germany.
Cultural Assimination from settling in Normandy, the British Isles (Danelaw, Scottish isles and Dublin), Brittany and to a lesser degree Varangian Guards)
Cultural Importation form captured people/Items from pretty much anywhere you can get in boat, that including the rivers through Rus' to Constantinoble.
The easier way is to butterfly Christianisation of the Roman Empire. Without being propelled as an imperial cult, it would be mostly stuck in the eastern part and in a non-hegemonic position; having a too limited influence in the western part.
After this, it becomes really hard except if we can twist a bit the OP. From the moment the demographical and structural advantages goes to Christian imperial or post-imperial entities, the pressure risks to be simply too huge.
Doesn't mean you can't delay enough the process of Christianisation and ends with significant non-Christian pockets.
For something more, you'd need a more deeply structured cult, an organized religion rather than a mix of different rites (not that weren't structured themselves, but weren't an unified institutional and theological body). Not unthinkable, critically with a slower Christianisation of Central Europe.
I don't think it would be enough to prevent the conversion of these realms (critically with the advantages of such moves : diplomatic "recognition", imperial model with kingship power being reinforced, etc.). But you may end with a more or less significant pagan minority living on up to nowadays.
After this, it becomes really hard except if we can twist a bit the OP. From the moment the demographical and structural advantages goes to Christian imperial or post-imperial entities, the pressure risks to be simply too huge.
Doesn't mean you can't delay enough the process of Christianisation and ends with significant non-Christian pockets.
For something more, you'd need a more deeply structured cult, an organized religion rather than a mix of different rites (not that weren't structured themselves, but weren't an unified institutional and theological body). Not unthinkable, critically with a slower Christianisation of Central Europe.
I don't think it would be enough to prevent the conversion of these realms (critically with the advantages of such moves : diplomatic "recognition", imperial model with kingship power being reinforced, etc.). But you may end with a more or less significant pagan minority living on up to nowadays.
Christianity is not monolithic anyway. Southwest European Christianity is brimfull of mediterranean paganisms, as is North European Christianity with northern paganisms, so when people from these parts encounter the others, both sides think the others are semi-pagans (if they have heard anything of ancient paganism, that is).
Islamic Scandinavia might be a stronger possibility than remaining heathendom, but joining faith with Rome or Constantinople seems more plausible, unless we have a period of moslem rule of France around 700-1100 AD, when missionaries were active in Scandinavia.
Islamic Scandinavia might be a stronger possibility than remaining heathendom, but joining faith with Rome or Constantinople seems more plausible, unless we have a period of moslem rule of France around 700-1100 AD, when missionaries were active in Scandinavia.
Pretty damn hard, as they were surrounded by hostile Christian nations, and they definitely didn't have the manpower or resources to fend off a full scale invasion. Maybe if they converted to Islam en masse when they first contacted Arab traders they might survive, but even then They would probably get Crusaded sooner or later. From them to survive that way would probably call for muslim Russia, to connect Scandinavia to the heart of Islam.
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There's an easy way to accomplish this: Saul falls off his horse and dies before he can spread his message about Christianity.
I can't see it happening with a PoD, say, after 476 though. Too many forces propelling Christianity forward and nothing cohesive to stop it. There's a reason the Baltic isn't Pagan.
I can't see it happening with a PoD, say, after 476 though. Too many forces propelling Christianity forward and nothing cohesive to stop it. There's a reason the Baltic isn't Pagan.
Ahh yes, genocide.
But yeah, kill the gentile recruiter and you let the Nords keep their Old Gods.
If the Arabs had managed to conquer Constantinople, it is likely that Russia would had chosen Islam as religion, so Islam could have arrived from Russia.
Would there even be any dominant Christianity in Europe if they conquer Constantinople?
Perhaps Charlemagne's rule still happens, and his crusade against the Saxons.
Would be interesting to see a Scandinavia that holds out as long as Lithuania and then gets crusaded.
Possibly Danish or Swedish monarchs in later centuries could made profit and personal union (with what state, I am not sure) if they did a late conversion a la Lithuania. Or, Scandinavia could become an effective colony of the Saxon stem duchy, or the mark of Brandenburg, or Piast Poland?
Possibly Danish or Swedish monarchs in later centuries could made profit and personal union (with what state, I am not sure) if they did a late conversion a la Lithuania. Or, Scandinavia could become an effective colony of the Saxon stem duchy, or the mark of Brandenburg, or Piast Poland?