It does not matter whether or not the Byzantines managed to expands, but assuming they still survived how could this affect the history of the world?
How Would A Surviving Byzantine Empire Impact The Modern World
- Thread starter TickTock The Witch's Dead
- Start date
As someone who knows barely anything on the Empire... Challenge accepted.
The City State of the Byzantine Empire has remained a fixture of commerce across the Black and Mediterranean Seas. With multi-century dynasties, it can claim to be the heir to the Roman Empire, despite being little bigger than its capital Constantinople. After centuries of warfare with both the Bulgarian and the Aydinid Empires, they maintain close relations with their neighbors. Within the past century several minor branches of the Imperial family have intermarried into both Empires.
The Empire's most lasting modern legacy has been support for Greek Nationalism, with nationalists often seeking shelter in the city state after failed revolts against the Phanariote States. Despite many of its leaders originating from the Byzantine Empire, Phanariote rulers long considered their local thrones of more importance than Constantinople. The Greek Nationalist revolts often failing, a unification by Byzantine-support leaders occurred in the late 18th century. Despite the promise of many of these nationalists to pay homage to the Emperor, upon founding the Greek State centered on Thessaloniki, they openly rejected the Empire. Relations were damaged for decades from the obstinateness of Thessaloniki, though the rise of the Third Bulgarian Empire saw a tact commercial alliance form. As of today the Greeks call the Romaioi along with the Póntioi kindred spirits in a shared cultural legacy of Hellenism.
The City State of the Byzantine Empire has remained a fixture of commerce across the Black and Mediterranean Seas. With multi-century dynasties, it can claim to be the heir to the Roman Empire, despite being little bigger than its capital Constantinople. After centuries of warfare with both the Bulgarian and the Aydinid Empires, they maintain close relations with their neighbors. Within the past century several minor branches of the Imperial family have intermarried into both Empires.
The Empire's most lasting modern legacy has been support for Greek Nationalism, with nationalists often seeking shelter in the city state after failed revolts against the Phanariote States. Despite many of its leaders originating from the Byzantine Empire, Phanariote rulers long considered their local thrones of more importance than Constantinople. The Greek Nationalist revolts often failing, a unification by Byzantine-support leaders occurred in the late 18th century. Despite the promise of many of these nationalists to pay homage to the Emperor, upon founding the Greek State centered on Thessaloniki, they openly rejected the Empire. Relations were damaged for decades from the obstinateness of Thessaloniki, though the rise of the Third Bulgarian Empire saw a tact commercial alliance form. As of today the Greeks call the Romaioi along with the Póntioi kindred spirits in a shared cultural legacy of Hellenism.
I approve!
Seriously, points for originality. No super empire, no mention of space filling empires, and no Byzantine wank. Also, I liked the balkanized Greece idea.
The Empire would be known as the state that began as a city and ended up as another city.
Caesar Biden
Banned
I approve
.In all honesty, this WI has too many far reaching consequences that it's impossible to even guess. Focus on one issue, like religion.
One thing I'm curious about would be how the Byzantines perceive themselves. If they're a direct continuation (not a restoration, etc), then you're talking a state that has existed since before the birth of Christ. A state that has dominated Europe on and off for centuries, and could very well be a major player in world affairs in the present as well. The cultural heritage would be immense, although the exact details I'm unsure of.
The state allegedly founded by Romulus and Remus has gone through so many mutations and transformations throughout time, some of them incredibly gradual, that it's become a favorite pastime of historians and political thinkers to debate whether this or that arbitrary cut-off point is more valid than the others in describing its various phases.
In fact, the only one they agree upon is the first, the moment when Rome abandoned its King and became a Republic. Regarding everything afterwards, putting two historians in the same room will illicit at least three separate opinions.
In short, the state grew from a minor village barely controlling its surroundings, to a small-ish city dominating central Italy, to a medium-sized city dominating most of the peninsula, to a reasonably large city dominating most of the western Mediterranean, having swallowed up Carthage's Empire, to a huge metropolis (fed by the fertile fields of Carthage and Egypt) dominating all of the Mare Nostrum and western Europe, its laws, roads, legions and coins stretching from Scotland to Iraq.
Gradually though, through a combination of plague, climate change, migrations and civil wars, the western portions of this Empire came to be dominated by Germanic peoples, which, fusing with the local Romanized populations and their culture and systems, gave rise to the modern nations of Europe.
The city of Rome meanwhile gradually lost its political and economical importance, which shifted to Constantinople, as well as enjoying a steady decline in population.
The East meanwhile was nearly lost as well, were it not for multiple triumphs outside the walls of Constantinople snatching victory form the jaws of defeat. Its greater wealth and urbanization though allowed the eastern portion of the state to live on, and eventually to consolidate in the largely Greek-speaking areas of Anatolia and the southern Balkans. Italy too remained partially dominated for several centuries, although thoroughly wrecked by the effort to take and then keep it. The Arab Muslim conquests meanwhile robbed the Empire of its African and Levantine possessions, whilst Slavic migrations lead to the loss of most of Thrace and Illyria.
Thus reduced to its Greek core, the Empire soldiered on for several centuries, until a combination of increasing Slavic power in Balkans, a new wave of Turkic migration in Anatolia and naval and economic dominance of Italian city-states reduced it from the status of a great power to a collection of an ever dwindling number of fragmented territories. Even Constantinople itself was wrecked by this new onslaught, and, although re-taken from the “Latin Empire” three decades afterwards*, never again regained its dominating position.
The loss of most of the state’s last Anatolian and, to a lesser extent Greek possessions, meant that it was no longer even a significant regional power, instead being forced to rely on tribute and diplomacy to try and stay alive, always trying to maintain a balance of power between the power of the Turks on land and that of the Italians at sea.
By the 15th century, the state had become reliant on the goodwill of Catholic nations, and began a slow, arduous process of accepting Papal supremacy. This worked out rather well, as for a full century, the Capital managed to resist the periodic Turkish siege taking place every 10-20 years.
Towards the end of the century though, Turkish strength had simply grown too much, and no amount of lucky breaks, diplomacy or western reinforcements were going to save Constantinople. Recognizing this, the then Emperor concluded a deal with the Turkish Sultan, handing over the city in exchange for being allowed to take its dwindled population to his remaining territories in Greece in peace.
Following this, the state was reduced to being a mere vassal of Venice, which gave it another good century of life in the Aegean, until Venetian power declined with the advent of new trade routes in the Atlantic. Turkish conquest followed shortly, although this did not mean the end of the state. On the contrary, the state’s ruling dynasty had spent great efforts, for most of the previous century, to acquire, through papal favor, marriage or inheritance, bits and pieces of land in southern Italy and Sicily.
Although a mini-migration of sorts towards Sicily took place in the aftermath of the Turkish conquest of Morea, it was not enough to alter the ethnic make-up of the State’s new lands. By the end of the 17th century, most of the elites were bi-lingual at best, as use of the Italian language continued to permeate into the lives of the ruling class.
Although acknowledging at times suzerainty of either Spanish or Austrian monarchs, the ruling dynasty never lost its actual grip on power in the peninsula’s south for the following two centuries. Fortune had it that it was the first to hop on to the nationalist bandwagon once the new ideology gained traction, meaning that by the middle of the 19th century, the ruling dynasty saw itself ruling over a re-unified Italy in theory and slaves to the new liberal elites in practice. Towards the end of the century, the city of Rome itself came to be ruled by the state, the first time since the reign of Emperor Leo III in the 8th century.
Three world wars, two revolutions and one failed referendum to abolish the monarchy later, the Imperatore e Basileo continues to sit on his throne in his palace in Rome, occasionally attending the odd interview, charitable event or inauguration of large public works, whilst his ministers face scandals of corruption and bunga bunga parties on an almost daily basis.
In fact, the only one they agree upon is the first, the moment when Rome abandoned its King and became a Republic. Regarding everything afterwards, putting two historians in the same room will illicit at least three separate opinions.
In short, the state grew from a minor village barely controlling its surroundings, to a small-ish city dominating central Italy, to a medium-sized city dominating most of the peninsula, to a reasonably large city dominating most of the western Mediterranean, having swallowed up Carthage's Empire, to a huge metropolis (fed by the fertile fields of Carthage and Egypt) dominating all of the Mare Nostrum and western Europe, its laws, roads, legions and coins stretching from Scotland to Iraq.
Gradually though, through a combination of plague, climate change, migrations and civil wars, the western portions of this Empire came to be dominated by Germanic peoples, which, fusing with the local Romanized populations and their culture and systems, gave rise to the modern nations of Europe.
The city of Rome meanwhile gradually lost its political and economical importance, which shifted to Constantinople, as well as enjoying a steady decline in population.
The East meanwhile was nearly lost as well, were it not for multiple triumphs outside the walls of Constantinople snatching victory form the jaws of defeat. Its greater wealth and urbanization though allowed the eastern portion of the state to live on, and eventually to consolidate in the largely Greek-speaking areas of Anatolia and the southern Balkans. Italy too remained partially dominated for several centuries, although thoroughly wrecked by the effort to take and then keep it. The Arab Muslim conquests meanwhile robbed the Empire of its African and Levantine possessions, whilst Slavic migrations lead to the loss of most of Thrace and Illyria.
Thus reduced to its Greek core, the Empire soldiered on for several centuries, until a combination of increasing Slavic power in Balkans, a new wave of Turkic migration in Anatolia and naval and economic dominance of Italian city-states reduced it from the status of a great power to a collection of an ever dwindling number of fragmented territories. Even Constantinople itself was wrecked by this new onslaught, and, although re-taken from the “Latin Empire” three decades afterwards*, never again regained its dominating position.
The loss of most of the state’s last Anatolian and, to a lesser extent Greek possessions, meant that it was no longer even a significant regional power, instead being forced to rely on tribute and diplomacy to try and stay alive, always trying to maintain a balance of power between the power of the Turks on land and that of the Italians at sea.
By the 15th century, the state had become reliant on the goodwill of Catholic nations, and began a slow, arduous process of accepting Papal supremacy. This worked out rather well, as for a full century, the Capital managed to resist the periodic Turkish siege taking place every 10-20 years.
Towards the end of the century though, Turkish strength had simply grown too much, and no amount of lucky breaks, diplomacy or western reinforcements were going to save Constantinople. Recognizing this, the then Emperor concluded a deal with the Turkish Sultan, handing over the city in exchange for being allowed to take its dwindled population to his remaining territories in Greece in peace.
Following this, the state was reduced to being a mere vassal of Venice, which gave it another good century of life in the Aegean, until Venetian power declined with the advent of new trade routes in the Atlantic. Turkish conquest followed shortly, although this did not mean the end of the state. On the contrary, the state’s ruling dynasty had spent great efforts, for most of the previous century, to acquire, through papal favor, marriage or inheritance, bits and pieces of land in southern Italy and Sicily.
Although a mini-migration of sorts towards Sicily took place in the aftermath of the Turkish conquest of Morea, it was not enough to alter the ethnic make-up of the State’s new lands. By the end of the 17th century, most of the elites were bi-lingual at best, as use of the Italian language continued to permeate into the lives of the ruling class.
Although acknowledging at times suzerainty of either Spanish or Austrian monarchs, the ruling dynasty never lost its actual grip on power in the peninsula’s south for the following two centuries. Fortune had it that it was the first to hop on to the nationalist bandwagon once the new ideology gained traction, meaning that by the middle of the 19th century, the ruling dynasty saw itself ruling over a re-unified Italy in theory and slaves to the new liberal elites in practice. Towards the end of the century, the city of Rome itself came to be ruled by the state, the first time since the reign of Emperor Leo III in the 8th century.
Three world wars, two revolutions and one failed referendum to abolish the monarchy later, the Imperatore e Basileo continues to sit on his throne in his palace in Rome, occasionally attending the odd interview, charitable event or inauguration of large public works, whilst his ministers face scandals of corruption and bunga bunga parties on an almost daily basis.
All the Byzanto-fanboys on this site would have to find a different empire to get all moist and sticky over.
The Byzantine Empire lives on in the Legacy of Cyprus, its last and far flung refuge. While Constantinople was conquered the island remained free of foreign occupation ever since the alliance upheld between the Lionheart and Issac Komnenos whose minor line would become the surviving branch and legacy of the Romans for centuries until the Basils. The Romans of Cyprus have had to manage an almost dizzying array of alliances and back room deals between whatever power arose on the shores of the Mediterranian and their rivals. Intervening no less then twelve times in various civil wars in the Levant and Anatolia they have had the powerful fortune of always picking a winner! The early friendship with the English would eventually pay off when the North Atlantic Island began to become a true global power. The British and Romans even fought the French Despot Murat when he launched an invasion of the Island which is immortalized in a massive relief depicting French soldiers and ships dueling with Roman soldiers and British ships. Now in modern times there is some debate over unifying with the Greek ańd Thracian Republics now that h Red Wall has fallen down, but in truth the current ruler John Stamos VI is leery if of the economic effect it would have on his island's tourist and service eco
All the Byzanto-fanboys on this site would have to find a different empire to get all moist and sticky over.
Carthage's time is here at last!
If the Byzantine Empire managed to get a grip n gunpowder earlier, they could use it to their advantage.
I believe that the Americas will still be discovered, and the Empire could try to establish a few colonies.
I wonder if Napoleon would ally with the Byzantines against the Turks during the Egyptian invasion.
I believe that the Americas will still be discovered, and the Empire could try to establish a few colonies.
I wonder if Napoleon would ally with the Byzantines against the Turks during the Egyptian invasion.
Caesar Biden
Banned
In all seriousness though, the Empire would have to be at least a Great power to survive. Meaning at the very least Greece+Anatolia, with bits of Syria and the Balkans.
Such a huge power will be about the strength of OTL's Ottomans, and will affect the world in such a huge way that the butteflies are impossible to judge.
Such a huge power will be about the strength of OTL's Ottomans, and will affect the world in such a huge way that the butteflies are impossible to judge.
An empire that died three centuries before the birth of a particular Corsican... Butterflies are crying.
Deleted member 67076
Um, when is the POD? Effectively you could, at the very latest have a POD where Timur ends the Ottoman Empire and the empire could bounce back after digesting the balkanized mess of warlords that appears on the remnants of Bayezid's empire.
They could probably survive with the borders of Andronicus III at the least if they enacted the proper reforms.
Caesar Biden
Banned
Possibly, yes, but if we're looking at the scale of centuries, I can't see them surviving with only their European holdings. If a power in the Balkans, Anatolia, or even Southern Italy arises, they can't do much to stop them from rolling them over.
I'll go one step further: If you can make the Crusade of 1444 succeed against very, very high odds, Byzantium can survive on life support indefinitely. They would be a vassal of another power, however.
Now, the Ottoman Interregnum as a PoD is very interesting, because a revived Empire here would be just as Turkic as Greek. Again, though, if it wants to survive as anything more than a vassal state, it has to hold Western Anatolia, the Imperial heartland.
Riain
Banned
Firstly, let me suggest that the core territory a surviving Byzantine Empire would occupy would be somewhere between the Komnenos gains and what Greece briefly held by the Treaty of Sevres but including the Demilitarised zone and Constantinople.
I think that the importance of Byzantium would decline in relative terms in the 1400s since Western Europe will look to the Atlantic to expand, the Portuguese were setting out as early as 1420. As a result I think that Byzantium would become more and more regionalised as a power because of it's lack of access to the wider world. However if she was able to undergo an agricultural revolution similar to that of Britain she could easily remain a significant power in European and therefore world politics.
Most importantly there would be continuity in winemaking, and south-eastern varietals from the Empire would/could rival French varietals in the global wine trade today.
I think that the importance of Byzantium would decline in relative terms in the 1400s since Western Europe will look to the Atlantic to expand, the Portuguese were setting out as early as 1420. As a result I think that Byzantium would become more and more regionalised as a power because of it's lack of access to the wider world. However if she was able to undergo an agricultural revolution similar to that of Britain she could easily remain a significant power in European and therefore world politics.
Most importantly there would be continuity in winemaking, and south-eastern varietals from the Empire would/could rival French varietals in the global wine trade today.
Caesar Biden
Banned
It all depends on the PoD. Assuming a classic No Manzikert, the Romans will be in control of all of Anatolia, much of the Balkans, Armenia and Syria, even Southern Italy....
Such a power will be a powerful nation even unto modern times, and will be the superpower of the med up until the age of industrialization.
However, a rump Byzantine Empire, only controlling parts of Anatolia along with Thrace and Greece, will still be very rich, and have a huge impact on the med world, well beyond wine making.