IL DUCE AT SEA: THE ITALIAN NAVY MORE POTENT !

The Second World War was a dramatic defeat for Italy and consequently for the Italian Navy.

The reasons of the naval disaster are several:

a) Wrong attitudes of Supermarina (Naval Head Quarter) in conducting the war strategies - crews and Captains demonstrated every day an extraordinary courage and skill but their initiatives were always frustrated by Supermarina's too prudent policy;
b) absolutely poor coordination with the Air Force;
c) inadequate equipments in terms of radar lack and unsatisfactory precision of gun aiming systems;
d) fuel lack;
e) the enemy was the British Royal Navy, for centuries the most powerful armada of the world;
f) the Royal Navy was able to read for almost all conflict long the Italian encryipted message that should be kept secret.

Most of these reasons are the obvious consequences of the irresponsible political decision by the Mussolini's government to join the war, thinking it would be ended in few months with the victory of German ally on every front.


The Italian militaries had to obey to the orders of the government, and they went to a war well aware that there weren't chances of victory for them. They were successful in the '30s against Ethiopians and Spanish Republicans, but the enemy they were going to face was well different.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/9226/ww2.html

BUT WI....

The Italian Navy avoided ALL of the problems from A-F ? :confused:

Mussolini puts pressure to have the Navy perform more operations against the Brits in the North Atlantic to show Hitler he's not going to be a junior partner ?

Italian subs join with the Kriegsmarine in taking out Allied Shipping ?:mad:

Would America decide to stay out or enter the War earlier ?:eek:
 
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Ever hear of Gibraltar?

However there is something in this idea. Have the following (none of which is ASB):

1] Mussolini encouraging his Admirals to be more agrressive

2] Mussolini encouraging cooperaition between Navy and Air Force. The Italian torpedo bombers had some potential.

3] Complete Vittorio Veneto and Littorio each 4 weeks earlier.

This could lead a very nice Italian victory at Punto Stilo (Jul 1940) where actually they were not quite as inept as the fable convenue but HMG hyped the encounter and hid RN battle damage.

Follow this up an invasion of Malta. If that succeeds the North African campaign is much different.

Tom
 

Paul MacQ

Monthly Donor
Respect and Greater understanding of the Navy early on and the Fuel Problem Hmmm

Give El Duce a loved and respected Older Cousin/Young Uncle that is in the Navy someone the Muss would Respect and Trust. This someone can infuse
El Duce wth a love and Greater understanding of the Navy

Oil In Lybia found in say 1919 ( Italy finds Lybian oil old often used idea but still a Good one )
More money for the Navy as Italy can be a major exporter of Oil and Sea lanes become much more Important. Spain Becomes allot more dependent on Italy as She will depend on Italy for her Oil and Italy has increased demand for Spanish iron.


Add some more money spent Possiby Radar for Italian or gets it from Northern friend .
http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/panzerschiffe/admiralgrafspee/index.html
 
It would be good for Italians if they have created Navy Air Force, independent from the Air Force... or just kept Air Force divided between Army and Navy...
 

Gremlin

Banned
For the Italian Navy to have had a greater impact on the war they would have to have developed a capacity to amphib/paradrop Malta and seize either of the Suez Canal or Gibralter.

The problem in doing this is that the Italian Navy is too small, they can win battles against the RN but unlike the RN they cannot draft replacments into the theatre from other areas and eventually attrition will catch up with them.

So we need an Italy that is in a better economic postion to expand its fleet without taking resources from other areas - Libyan oil! Which means that come the war Musso is going to have to neutralise Malta pretty sharpish if he is to maintain his flow of oil, Oil that Germany will need and perhaps exchange a few tech developments for its continued flow into the Reich and maybe Hitler will be keen to send a Korps for its protection sooner than OTL. Another effect of this Oil could well be more investment in the Libyan area meaner more capacity to supply an army, therefore a stronger Afrika Korps.

So,

* Italy declares war
* Germany exchanges a couple of techs and sends a detechment of troops to the Libyan oil wells to free up Italian troops for the invasion of Eygpt.
* The war goes as OTL aside from heavy naval and air action around Malta.
* German reserves quickly brought to the front to halt O'Connors drive from Eygpt.
* Mainland Greece falls
* German Fallschirmjagers drop on Malta after intense Aerial and Naval bombardment - The RN and RM both suffer heavy losses as do German troops who nevertheless seize the Island with the assistance of troops who finnaly scramble ashore.
* With their supply lines across the Med secure, the Axis armies in Africa sweep on to the Suez.
 
Arizona Ranger said:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/9226/ww2.html

BUT WI....

The Italian Navy avoided ALL of the problems from A-F ? :confused:

Well that would require beaucracy changes.

The Italians developed a Radar in 1937 that as late as 1943 was far more advanced than anything anyone else had. Have that placed aboard Italian ships. Next, put high emphasis on Night fighting excercises. Hell train with the Japanese and exchange radar for the Long Lance Torpedo:D

Next, agressive Officers with Freedom of Action.
 
if the oil is found in 1919 as Paul MacQ suggested i think it is reasonable to have a some what stronger italian army and airforce and much stronger italian navy think about how much more money they would have been able to spend on there military during all those years, maybe even enough to give the british a run for there money in the med (that is if the british don't build stronger forces there to counter it)
 
Stay out of War

Have Italy enter the War later, with increase trade from the waring Nations, Italy could build a much larger Navy.

Also Have Italy build more Attack Planes.

Have Italy build and use PT boats, on Large Surface Ships.
 
One constraint that the Italias faced were the terms of the Washington Treaty which restricted the tonnage of battleships that they could build in the twenties and thirties.

One option to get round the constraints would have been to do what the Japanese did which was cheat. Another would have to to have given a greater tonnage although they would have had to have got that one past the French.

By the time of the London treaty, the Italians were already cheating, but if they had started earlier, they could have got bigger battleships.

In addition, they had the option to build two aircraft carriers which they didn't take up.
 
Michael B said:
One constraint that the Italias faced were the terms of the Washington Treaty which restricted the tonnage of battleships that they could build in the twenties and thirties.

One option to get round the constraints would have been to do what the Japanese did which was cheat. Another would have to to have given a greater tonnage although they would have had to have got that one past the French.

By the time of the London treaty, the Italians were already cheating, but if they had started earlier, they could have got bigger battleships.

In addition, they had the option to build two aircraft carriers which they didn't take up.
1. Bigger battleships doen't equal better, y'know - the Italian Vittorio Veneto is a proof of that - you could build a battleship with the same offensive and defensive capabilities but at last 3000 tonnes smaller...
2. Treaty constraints weren't so much of a problem, unlike a noticable lack of funds - Great Depression, anyone?
3. Another thing about battleships - Italians in the 30's thoroughly modernized 4 of their old battleships - including raising gun calibre to 320mm from 305mm. Not much better, if you ask me - Royal Navy's battleships carried 381mm guns at least at that time. Instead of modernising the old ones, Italians should have scrapped them and built 3 new battleships instead - there were already plans for them - ~26500t, 3 double 381mm turrets, 29 knots and 250mm armor - they would be much more useful in WW2.
4. Carriers - yes, in hindsight they should have built them. But Italians thought that at a such small sea as Mediterrian they don't seaborne aircraft, only based on land...
 
There's no need to overstrain Italy's rather low industrial base by mucking about with capital ships:-
(a) No Taranto. This would give them more big ships at the start.
(b) More planes and a decent dive bomber - perhaps the Germans could have lent them more Stukas. The only native dive bomber was I think the Macchi 2002 which wasn't up to much. The SM79 torpedo bomber was very good, though, and they could have done with more squadrons.
(c) Speaking of German loans, not many people seem to know the E boats (S boats) that sank HMS Manchester were Italian crewed. Further, the Italians were always good at small boat work, both in WW1 & WW2. Capitalise on this. More EMBs like the one that sank the York, more chariots, more E Boats.
(d) I don't feel Supermarina needed a more aggressive posture. They were dealing with one of the world's largest navies. So long as the North African convoys were protected, they could afford to remain a fleet-in-being until the RN was written down. Avoid sideshows. They wasted a dozen destroyers and some submarines around Ethiopia.
(e) Italian submarines did operate in the Atlantic, under German command. Doenitz found them too large, short-ranged, expensive on fuel and with too high a conning tower. Some changes there, then.
 
There's no need to overstrain Italy's rather low industrial base by mucking about with capital ships:-
(a) No Taranto. This would give them more big ships at the start.
(b) More planes and a decent dive bomber - perhaps the Germans could have lent them more Stukas. The only native dive bomber was I think the Macchi 2002 which wasn't up to much. The SM79 torpedo bomber was very good, though, and they could have done with more squadrons.
(c) Speaking of German loans, not many people seem to know the E boats (S boats) that sank HMS Manchester were Italian crewed. Further, the Italians were always good at small boat work, both in WW1 & WW2. Capitalise on this. More EMBs like the one that sank the York, more chariots, more E Boats.
(d) I don't feel Supermarina needed a more aggressive posture. They were dealing with one of the world's largest navies. So long as the North African convoys were protected, they could afford to remain a fleet-in-being until the RN was written down. Avoid sideshows. They wasted a dozen destroyers and some submarines around Ethiopia.
(e) Italian submarines did operate in the Atlantic, under German command. Doenitz found them too large, short-ranged, expensive on fuel and with too high a conning tower. Some changes there, then.
 
If the POD is a sudden technological breakthrough that allows the Italians to exploit Libyan oil reserves in 1919 then it is unlikely the Fascists would come to power at all or even exist. The Weimar Republic would much rather do a deal with the Italians to get their oil than the Soviets. Subsequently, the Italian economy would be in much better shapre than in OTL and the Soviet one less so.

Even if Mussolini came to power as in OTL with a better economy, he would likely use the cash on what he did in OTL. No hindsight would happen just because Italy had a stronger economy. Indeed, Fascist states tend to spend on both guns and butter because they feel they need to continually bribe the population to support them.
 
While Italy was facing one of the largest navies in the world, they could achieve local naval superiority. The UK could not deploy large numbers of ships to the Med without hampering operations elsewhere.
On the other hand, there needed to be coordination of naval & aviation operations (which seemed to be a problem that plagued the European axis powers)
There also needed to be some clear strategic objective.
They should have commited forces to securing Malta and the other Med. islands. They should have commited forces to insure as close to 100% of the supplies needed in the NA theater actually arrived.
 

Gremlin

Banned
As I posted earlier - The Italians need to close the Med off at both ends to really stand a chance.

Or could they possibly get their hands on the French Navy?
 
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