Dunlop John, or the British Bazooka

This is my first attempt at a TL, it won't be particularly in-depth or thorough, but I think it's at least a small, plausible change that could have interesting consequences. My apologies, of course, for yet another newbie AH World War 2...

As Britain began rearming in 1934, the spectre of what was then called the Great War loomed over defence planning. The dire losses of fighting men in the trenches of northern France would be totally unacceptable - one crippled generation was bad enough, without the prospect of a second. Armoured vehicles were, of course, a major outcome of this perspective; though the difficulties experienced by British infantry, and especially cruiser, tanks are well documented, the remarkable Universal Carrier line resulted from the desire to provide infantry with some degree of mobility protected against shell splinters and machine gun fire.

The question of neutralising enemy strongpoints, particularly machine gun nests, continued to present some difficulty. The standard Mills bomb was entirely adequate to the job, true - but it had to be thrown, requiring a rifleman to close within fifty feet. Fitted with a launcher cup, the Lee-Enfield rifle could project the grenade to about 200 yards, allowing engagement from a comfortable range; one man in an infantry section carried this device. Despite the convenience of using a service grenade and rifle, the high angle of fire made accurate range estimation essential and allowed wind to push the grenade off course.

More convenient would be a weapon with a similar warhead but a flat trajectory, able to be fired directly against a bunker or dugout and with no more difficulty than a rifle. Initial thoughts were for a light infantry gun firing a one-and-a-half pound high explosive shell, somewhat in the vein of the Vickers 1.59-inch Q.F. Mark II - better known by the misnomer 'Vickers-Crayford Rocket Gun'. Whilst certainly feasible, this weapon was hardly any more mobile than a medium machine gun, by no means suited to the expected mobile nature of modern warfare.

Something lighter was sought; this implied a lower pressure charge firing at a lower speed, hardly likely to propel a Mills bomb or something like it to the required range. It is unclear who first proposed the use of a rocket, but the idea clearly had merit. It could be launched from a lightweight tube, allowing a soldier to carry a rocket launcher and a few rockets without difficulty. The Ordnance Department set to work, producing the prototype Light Infantry Assault Rocket, or L.I.A.R., in 1937.

Troop trials were promising; the 2.5-inch calibre rocket was effective to a range of 175 yards, and delivered similar firepower to a Mills bomb. Alternative warheads were soon developed and tested to supplement the conventional grenade, with smoke and incendiary rockets tested successfully before the first units were delivered to the Army in early 1938, the objective being to provide each platoon with a two-man rocket launching team equipped with a launcher and six rockets.

One of the first units to recieve the weapon in general service was the 2nd Battalion, Middlesex Regiment, and it was these that gave it its' now universal nickname. Offically designated L.I.A.R. Mk I, the Londoners quickly - and inevitably - dubbed it with the rhyming slang 'Dunlop Tyre', or 'Dunlop' for short. By the time war broke out in September 1939, the Dunlop rocket was widespread. Though few battalions yet had the desired twelve launchers, the rocket still offered the British army's infantry formations an enviable level of integral fire support.
 
Interesting. Although it's much later (and obviously not the PoD), one of my Timelines, the Mers-el-Kebir Resolutions sees Britain developing their own anti tank rocket.

IOTL the Burney gun was ultimately a failure in itself but let to the WOMBAT system.

In my timeline the British (with the help of the Free French) win the Battle of Crete and capture some German anti infantry rocket launchers .

Sir Dennis Burney uses these to correct some flaws in his design and by 1942 the 75mm Personal Infantry Rocket Anti Tank (PIRAT) gun enters service. And the HESH warhead also gets adapted for use from a tank gun.

Still a Bazooka type weapon in service before the war? Very interesting repercussions, there were many early battles where the British came a cropper because there was no effective anti tank capabality at batallion level or below in infantry units.
 
Last edited:
*Bump*

I enjoy this PoD. A big, big problem for the Brits early war was the last of organic AT. And now they've got it.

The question is: What gets cut down to size to make room (and money) for the L.I.A.R?
 
The question is: What gets cut down to size to make room (and money) for the L.I.A.R?

James Chadwick has his funding slashed and is put to work in an office managing coal production figures. He never joins the Manhattan Project, and WWII ends in 1947 with a bloodied, salted, massacred Japanese Home Islands.

Subtlest. POD. Ever.

More seriously, I too love this POD and hope this TL goes somewhere. LIAR - Dunlop Tyre - Dunlop is a lovely piece of AH worldbuilding and would be believable in an OTL book. I would happily read some short vignettes of soldiers in the BoF shouldering Dunlops and perhaps blunting an armoured advance or two - though I imagine Dunkirk will still happen on schedule.

One knock-on, too, will be that the Germans are likely to capture some of these during the BoF, and copy them like they copied the Bazooka. An earlier *Panzerschreck could have still-small but noticeable effects on Barbarossa.
 

Driftless

Donor
*Bump*

I enjoy this PoD. A big, big problem for the Brits early war was the last of organic AT. And now they've got it.

The question is: What gets cut down to size to make room (and money) for the L.I.A.R?

Wasn't the Boys AT Rifle kind of a carryover from WW1 thought? So that might be a logical program to cut, though probably not a lot of budget committed to an over-grown elephant gun

I'm surprised there wasn't something else in the development pipeline to bridge the gap between the rifle grenade and a genuine AT gun like the 2 pounder, or the Hotchkiss 25mm. The idea that a "poor bloody infantry" soldier is going to stop a moving tank with a rifle propelled ordinary grenade doesn't compute. It probably didn't make any better sense back then either.

Several other armies used 20mm AT "rifles" that could be lugged around by 2-3 soldiers, or motorcycles, but I don't think the British used anything in that vein, did they?

Maybe the smaller mortar program - Ordnance, ML 2 inch, gets axed?
 
Last edited:
... though I imagine Dunkirk will still happen on schedule.
If they're entering service in early 1938 that leaves roughly a year and a half until Germany invades Poland. If the Poles were to buy a license to domestically produce them or simply bought a shedload then it makes you wonder what something like the 'Dunlop' would do to the rather basic Panzer I and Panzer II tanks that made up just shy of 90% of Germany's armoured force. They'd still be completely screwed once the Soviets invaded from the east but could end up giving the Wehrmacht a significant scare.
 

Errolwi

Monthly Donor
*Bump*

I enjoy this PoD. A big, big problem for the Brits early war was the last of organic AT. And now they've got it.

The question is: What gets cut down to size to make room (and money) for the L.I.A.R?

Hang on, when is it getting an AT warhead?
 
I think a more likely nickname for a LIAR is a "Truth-teller" or "Interrogator". What's happening to the Boys anti-tank rifle? That was able to penetrate the armour of a Panzer 1 or II (though it didn't do much damage)
 
If they're entering service in early 1938 that leaves roughly a year and a half until Germany invades Poland. If the Poles were to buy a license to domestically produce them or simply bought a shedload then it makes you wonder what something like the 'Dunlop' would do to the rather basic Panzer I and Panzer II tanks that made up just shy of 90% of Germany's armoured force. They'd still be completely screwed once the Soviets invaded from the east but could end up giving the Wehrmacht a significant scare.

As Errolwi says, at the moment it's just an anti-infantry RPG, there's no HEAT charge on the end of it. If the Poles do get some anti-tank Dunlops, they'll be effective in city fighting but I don't see Weiss getting slowed down - ultimately this isn't that different to giving the Germans StG44s two years early. Lots of tactical changes doesn't always add up to one big strategic one.

Butterflies will ensue, of course - who knows if Rommel's Panzer II will go up in smoke during Weiss and take him with it? But I see the longer term effects taking time. And crucially, you can fire as many Mills Bombs as you like at a tank, it's not going to do anything. Someone needs to come up with a HEAT round, pronto.
 
I have in mind the LIAR taking the place of the 2-inch mortar; note the scale of issue - platoon level, the same as the mortar.

The comments around lack of an anti-tank warhead are spot on; at the moment, the Dunlop is primarily an anti-infantry weapon. Against armour, the best chance is to use smoke (i.e. white phosphorus) or the incendiary thermite round and hope you get something flammable. Not a great deal of help, but then in 1939 most German tanks could be defeated by a Boys rifle.

Don't expect big changes to the early war, it's the downstream ripples that will be interesting.
 
I have in mind the LIAR taking the place of the 2-inch mortar; note the scale of issue - platoon level, the same as the mortar.

The comments around lack of an anti-tank warhead are spot on; at the moment, the Dunlop is primarily an anti-infantry weapon. Against armour, the best chance is to use smoke (i.e. white phosphorus) or the incendiary thermite round and hope you get something flammable. Not a great deal of help, but then in 1939 most German tanks could be defeated by a Boys rifle.

Don't expect big changes to the early war, it's the downstream ripples that will be interesting.

I await with interest. Of course, one big question is whether the Dunlop will fall into the category of 'the 50% of British WWII equipment that was shite' or 'the 50% of British WWII equipment which was fantastic'. Not much point getting excited about the Dunlop if it's hardly any better than the PIAT, or less useful than an A13...
 
Wait

Mmmmm, Didn't I read on this forum that the French devoleped an HEAT riflegrenade during the Phoney War. I know that this grenade design was used in the OTL Bazooka. Mate the two and Fall gelb gets interesting and the after dunkirk reason to go on with the 2 pounder anti-tank gun is a no go.

I have in mind the LIAR taking the place of the 2-inch mortar; note the scale of issue - platoon level, the same as the mortar.

The comments around lack of an anti-tank warhead are spot on; at the moment, the Dunlop is primarily an anti-infantry weapon. Against armour, the best chance is to use smoke (i.e. white phosphorus) or the incendiary thermite round and hope you get something flammable. Not a great deal of help, but then in 1939 most German tanks could be defeated by a Boys rifle.

Don't expect big changes to the early war, it's the downstream ripples that will be interesting.
 
Mmmmm, Didn't I read on this forum that the French devoleped an HEAT riflegrenade during the Phoney War. I know that this grenade design was used in the OTL Bazooka. Mate the two and Fall gelb gets interesting and the after dunkirk reason to go on with the 2 pounder anti-tank gun is a no go.

The BEF actually had a HEAT rifle grenade too, didn't they? It was (foolishly) directed to be fired from above, like mortar, however. The same tech combined with rocket propulsion could be... tasty.
 
I don't think the PBI would be happy losing their 2" mortar even if they gained an effective AT weapon. The mortar allows indirect fire against troops behind cover, mortar bombs are also relatively small and lighter than a rocket round.

The British army used the 2" mortar and replaced it with the 51mm mortar, they then decided to phase it out and replace it with 40mm grenade launchers. However they found that while the GL was a useful tool, it simply wasn't a full replacement which is why they purchased US 60mm mortars to give the infantry an organic indirect fire weapon. Much better to bite the bullet and either reduce the number of riflemen in a platoon or increase the size to add a mortar team.
 
I don't think the PBI would be happy losing their 2" mortar even if they gained an effective AT weapon. The mortar allows indirect fire against troops behind cover, mortar bombs are also relatively small and lighter than a rocket round.

The British army used the 2" mortar and replaced it with the 51mm mortar, they then decided to phase it out and replace it with 40mm grenade launchers. However they found that while the GL was a useful tool, it simply wasn't a full replacement which is why they purchased US 60mm mortars to give the infantry an organic indirect fire weapon. Much better to bite the bullet and either reduce the number of riflemen in a platoon or increase the size to add a mortar team.

Surely this would replace the Boys ATR in the TOE?

So 3 odd teams at Company level farmed out to the platoons as per the Boys?
 
Surely this would replace the Boys ATR in the TOE?

So 3 odd teams at Company level farmed out to the platoons as per the Boys?

The author has said it replaces the 2in mortar - remember it isn't an anti-tank weapon yet, it's a 'rocket launcher' that fires conventional grenades. It's literally an RPG.
 
Why can't it just replace the PIAT? That seems to be the role it most directly fills anyway...
 
Top