Ludendorff killed in 1914

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
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Deleted member 1487

What if Erich Ludendorff was killed at Liege in 1914 when he led the assault on the city that IOTL won himself fame that propelled him to command in the East?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Ludendorff#World_War_I
The Germans experienced their first major setback at Liège. Belgian artillery and machine guns killed thousands of German troops attempting frontal assaults. On 5 August Ludendorff took command of the 14th Brigade, whose general had been killed. He cut off Liège and called for siege guns. By 16 August all forts around Liège had fallen, allowing the German First Army to advance. As the victor of Liège, Ludendorff was awarded Germany's highest military decoration for gallantry, the Pour le Mérite, presented by emperor Wilhelm II himself on 22 August.
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Let's say that Hindenburg still commands the German 8th army, but now its just him and Max Hoffmann, who IIRC, didn't get on well with Hindenburg in the end due to him getting Hoffmann's credit for Tannenberg. Perhaps that doesn't happen here without Ludendorff in the picture and Hoffmann having his job?

Does Hindenburg rise to replace Falkenhayn without Ludendorff helping drive the media frenzy and the attempts to undermine Falkenhayn within the military and among the public via the media? Does the Hindenburg-Hoffmann alliance then conduct the war differently?

I have several opinions about all of this, I'm curious what the community thinks would happen. I didn't find this talked about before, so if it was let's have a new discussion.
 

Mikestone8

wiking said:
What if Erich Ludendorff was killed at Liege in 1914 when he led the assault on the city that IOTL won himself fame that propelled him to command in the East?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Ludendorff#World_War_I


Let's say that Hindenburg still commands the German 8th army, but now its just him and Max Hoffmann, who IIRC, didn't get on well with Hindenburg in the end due to him getting Hoffmann's credit for Tannenberg. Perhaps that doesn't happen here without Ludendorff in the picture and Hoffmann having his job?

Does Hindenburg rise to replace Falkenhayn without Ludendorff helping drive the media frenzy and the attempts to undermine Falkenhayn within the military and among the public via the media? Does the Hindenburg-Hoffmann alliance then conduct the war differently?

I have several opinions about all of this, I'm curious what the community thinks would happen. I didn't find this talked about before, so if it was let's have a new discussion.
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But would Hindenburg be left alone with Hoffman?

My understanding was that Ludendorff was chosen first, and Hindenburg just an afterthought to provide the necessary seniority. So Hindenburg would still be somebody's front man, and it's just a question of who OHL sends - Seeckt? Groener? Someone else?

Incidentally, it isn't necessary for Ludendorff to be killed. So long as he's out of action for a fortnight or so, they'll need to pick someone else. Even if he recovers later, that particular post will have been filled.
 

rast

Hindenburg was chosen after Ludendorff had been selected as new CoS 8th Army. Without L the probability for H to be chosen at all approaches zero.

Hoffmann was lieutenant-colonel and Ia, too junior to become CoS.

Most probably a complete new set, commander and CoS, would be sent - or the old set remains in place.
 

Deleted member 1487

Any clue who that new set would be? AFAIK Seeckt didn't show up until later, as he was involved in the West until after the Marne. Might Prittwitz have stayed on without Ludendorff? Prittwitz, despite his initial panic and rash behavior was pretty much ready to go for Tannenberg when he was dropped and doesn't appear to have been a bad commander overall, despite that initial misstep and panic. He also doesn't seem to have been a media whore like his successors, so perhaps if he stays on they get more cautious in the East, less likely to get into the troubles that Ludendorff did, so Falkenhayn stays on in 1916 as there isn't a clear successor on deck.
 

Mikestone8

rast said:
Hindenburg was chosen after Ludendorff had been selected as new CoS 8th Army. Without L the probability for H to be chosen at all approaches zero.

Hoffmann was lieutenant-colonel and Ia, too junior to become CoS.

Most probably a complete new set, commander and CoS, would be sent - or the old set remains in place.
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Hindenburg would still be quite likely with anyone sent from the west.

Iirc he was picked because his full name, Beneckendorff und Hindenburg, came up quite early on the (alphabetical) Army List, and he happened to live in Hannover, which was conveniently located on the rail line from Koblenz to East Prussia. So he wasn't picked totally at random.
 

rast

Concerning Prittwitz, there seems to have existed some animosity anyway. Obviously, he had been selected as army commander against Moltke's advice. So, the chance for him to be relieved of his post is high.
 

Deleted member 1487

So if Hindenburg is still the pick, who is the CoS without Ludendorff needing a reward for his actions? It would have to be someone on retirement, because at that moment all of the proven men were heavily engaged in the West and couldn't be spared; Ludendorff really had no major role in the West once Liege fell, that was his specialty, which was why he was on scene at the moment of decision. Would Prittwitz's CoS stay on then?
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_von_Waldersee
 

Mikestone8

wiking said:
So if Hindenburg is still the pick, who is the CoS without Ludendorff needing a reward for his actions? It would have to be someone on retirement, because at that moment all of the proven men were heavily engaged in the West and couldn't be spared; Ludendorff really had no major role in the West once Liege fell, that was his specialty, which was why he was on scene at the moment of decision. Would Prittwitz's CoS stay on then?
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_von_Waldersee
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Iirc, Von Mackensen was one of the Corps commanders in East Prussia. Was he senior enough to take over from Prittwitz?
 

rast

wiking said:
So if Hindenburg is still the pick, who is the CoS without Ludendorff needing a reward for his actions?http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_von_Waldersee
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Not very likely. IOTL, Hindenburg was specially selected because a commander was required who was known to be sufficiently phlegmatic to endure and blanket Ludendorff.
With Ludendorff out of the picture, the search would run for a forceful CO.

From the former army inspectors, von Eichhorn is available. Also possible might be von Stein (although at the time it was still hoped he would stabilise Moltke at OHL), von der Marwitz or even, although the Kaiser disliked him, von der Goltz.
 

Deleted member 1487

So in the long run does Falkenhayn keep his job without Ludendorff/Hindenburg?
 

rast

wiking said:
So in the long run does Falkenhayn keep his job without Ludendorff/Hindenburg?
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No. He damaged his reputation in the army at First Ypres and foundered it at Verdun. Bethmann Hollweg was wary of him, believing he wanted to become chancellor - and utterly disliking F's proposal to make a white peace in the east. What kept him afloat was Wilhelm II, but after Romania's entry even he despaired. - There certainly was no friendship between F and H/L, but F had many more enemies.
 

Deleted member 1487

rast said:
No. He damaged his reputation in the army at First Ypres and foundered it at Verdun. Bethmann Hollweg was wary of him, believing he wanted to become chancellor - and utterly disliking F's proposal to make a white peace in the east. What kept him afloat was Wilhelm II, but after Romania's entry even he despaired. - There certainly was no friendship between F and H/L, but F had many more enemies.
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No doubt, but who would replace him without Hindenburg in the picture and someone with a less 'big' personality in the East? Without a clear replacement candidate and an active undermining campaign in the media and in the army by H-L, perhaps Falkenhayn could muddle on until Russia goes into revolution.
 

rast

wiking said:
No doubt, but who would replace him without Hindenburg in the picture and someone with a less 'big' personality in the East?
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Depends. - The POD being L killed/disabled/captured at Liège, you either get a new big personality in the East, say v. Eichhorn, a much saner character than L, - or you'll get disaster in the East and a completely different war.

V. Eichhorn and his CoS, say Col v. Stolzmann, may become the new 'Saviours', E certainly was sound enough to appreciate the orders already issued by Prittwitz' staff - and he had the stamina to see them through.
 

Deleted member 1487

rast said:
Depends. - The POD being L killed/disabled/captured at Liège, you either get a new big personality in the East, say v. Eichhorn, a much saner character than L, - or you'll get disaster in the East and a completely different war.

V. Eichhorn and his CoS, say Col v. Stolzmann, may become the new 'Saviours', E certainly was sound enough to appreciate the orders already issued by Prittwitz' staff - and he had the stamina to see them through.
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Sure, but Eichhorn wasn't the same sort of personality as Hindenburg AFAIK. Assuming though that Eichhorn becomes TTL's replacement, how does he handle the war from 1916 on? I doubt we'd see a Hindenburg Program, which saves Germany a lot of misery in 1916-17, while the pull back of 1917 still happens. However would we see Ludendorff's organizational innovations that got us the Stosstrupp reforms? How about the 1918 offensives, USW, or even Germany trying to negotiate?
 

JLBB

wiking said:
Sure, but Eichhorn wasn't the same sort of personality as Hindenburg AFAIK. Assuming though that Eichhorn becomes TTL's replacement, how does he handle the war from 1916 on? I doubt we'd see a Hindenburg Program, which saves Germany a lot of misery in 1916-17, while the pull back of 1917 still happens. However would we see Ludendorff's organizational innovations that got us the Stosstrupp reforms? How about the 1918 offensives, USW, or even Germany trying to negotiate?
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Both the German and English Wiki article state that Eichhorn couldn't take up a command as a consequence of falling off his horse in may 1914 (the German one also states that he suffered from pneumonia till the end of 1914) and only returned to service in 1915.

Eichhorn, Emil Gottfried Hermann von - Deutsche Biographie

According to this article Eichhorn was supposed to be the commander of the 5th army, in which case I wonder where the Crown prince ends up.
 

Deleted member 1487

JLBB said:
Both the German and English Wiki article state that Eichhorn couldn't take up a command as a consequence of falling off his horse in may 1914 (the German one also states that he suffered from pneumonia till the end of 1914) and only returned to service in 1915.

Eichhorn, Emil Gottfried Hermann von - Deutsche Biographie

According to this article Eichhorn was supposed to be the commander of the 5th army, in which case I wonder where the Crown prince ends up.
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Thanks for the info. So perhaps von der Marwitz or von der Goltz then. Goltz was pretty old and ended up managing Belgium in 1914: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colmar_Freiherr_von_der_Goltz#In_German_service_.281914.E2.80.931915.29
Not sure if he was up for field command.

Marwitz was head of a cavalry command in the West at this point though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_von_der_Marwitz
 

rast

JLBB said:
Both the German and English Wiki article state that Eichhorn couldn't take up a command as a consequence of falling off his horse in may 1914
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'The Prussian Machine' web site puts the riding accident to 1913 and says that E was fit again in 1914, but was still listed 'sick' and thus was overlooked.
I've tried to research that, but there isn't much available in writing. It's clear that 5th Army was given to the Crown Prince instead of to E. But because the House of Prussia couldn't stay behind when Bavarian and Württemberg princes were leading armies in the field, the 'sick' status may have come very conveniently.
 

Deleted member 1487

rast said:
'The Prussian Machine' web site puts the riding accident to 1913 and says that E was fit again in 1914, but was still listed 'sick' and thus was overlooked.
I've tried to research that, but there isn't much available in writing. It's clear that 5th Army was given to the Crown Prince instead of to E. But because the House of Prussia couldn't stay behind when Bavarian and Württemberg princes were leading armies in the field, the 'sick' status may have come very conveniently.
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So Eichhorn then potentially gets command and perhaps keeps Prittwitz's CoS? He was pretty competent IOTL, so I'd imagine he'd do pretty much the same as OberOst. Did he have the standing though to replace Falkenhayn?
 

rast

wiking said:
So Eichhorn then potentially gets command and perhaps keeps Prittwitz's CoS? He was pretty competent IOTL, so I'd imagine he'd do pretty much the same as OberOst. Did he have the standing though to replace Falkenhayn?
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Prittwitz had been CO. So, making him CoS under another CO would be a worse punishment than sending him home. Unfortunately, sacking the CO meant that the old CoS had to go too. Waldersee had a good reputation and was considered the `political' fellow of the GGS. - However, Grünert, the 8th Army quartermaster general, became CoS 9th Army on its creation.

Regarding Eichhorn, Groener (who served as his CoS in the Ukraine) said that Ludendorff had more dash and was tactically superior, but E. was wiser, had a finer character and was strategically superior. Groener thought that E. and Woyrsch were the two finest field commanders of the German Army.
 

Deleted member 1487

rast said:
Prittwitz had been CO. So, making him CoS under another CO would be a worse punishment than sending him home. Unfortunately, sacking the CO meant that the old CoS had to go too. Waldersee had a good reputation and was considered the `political' fellow of the GGS. - However, Grünert, the 8th Army quartermaster general, became CoS 9th Army on its creation.

Regarding Eichhorn, Groener (who served as his CoS in the Ukraine) said that Ludendorff had more dash and was tactically superior, but E. was wiser, had a finer character and was strategically superior. Groener thought that E. and Woyrsch were the two finest field commanders of the German Army.
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No no, not keep him as CoS, keep his CoS and dismiss Prittwitz. So if the CoS is going too, why not just promote Hoffmann, even if he is junior?

I'll reserve judgement, Groener has some issues with the economy in 1916-17 and made some poor choices of his own. So perhaps Eichhorn was good, so he'll do well, but was he willing to replace EvF?
 
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