Assuming no Pearl Harbor, how long until the US is at war with Germany?

I'm working on a timeline where Japan stays neutral through WW2. I'd like some outside opinions on what this does to the US entry into the war.

How long is it delayed?
Who does the declaring? Germany on US or US on Germany?

Any advice or help towards my TL is much appreciated :D
 
Not very long. Perhaps some months but not more. USA had already sending military help for Soviets.
 
Not long, I don't think. Germany and America were already in an undeclared naval war.

Not very long. Perhaps some months but not more. USA had already sending military help for Soviets.

I would say 6 or 7 months at most (and taking into account the already mentioned "undeclared" naval war in the Atlantic).

If there are no wars in Asia at the time and America can devote its everything to just Europe, then is it safe to assume that Offensives such as Torch will happen as early as they did, despite the later entry, due to a higher concentration of troops/supplies/leadership?
 

Saphroneth

Banned
If there are no wars in Asia at the time and America can devote its everything to just Europe, then is it safe to assume that Offensives such as Torch will happen as early as they did, despite the later entry, due to a higher concentration of troops/supplies/leadership?
Not just Torch, but possibly Supertorch - with more sealift, much more can be done and it all snowballs. There's also more British capability available from the east.

Basically, OTL, Britain could fight Germany + Italy + Japan - pick two - comfortably.
 
Not just Torch, but possibly Supertorch - with more sealift, much more can be done and it all snowballs. There's also more British capability available from the east.

Basically, OTL, Britain could fight Germany + Italy + Japan - pick two - comfortably.

I'm making a preliminary assessment of where the Soviet and WAllies lines meet in such a snowball scenario. For now I've decided the OTL modern Polish-German border. It's just slightly east of Berlin, familiar and convenient. Is it realistic?

OTL the allies made really fast progress against the western defenses of Germany because the Nazis focused over 90% of their combat power on the Eastern Front. Even if the Germans reposition a bit after the Liberation of France, could the WAllies have realistically made it to Berlin before the Soviets?
 
I'm making a preliminary assessment of where the Soviet and WAllies lines meet in such a snowball scenario. For now I've decided the OTL modern Polish-German border. It's just slightly east of Berlin, familiar and convenient. Is it realistic?

OTL the allies made really fast progress against the western defenses of Germany because the Nazis focused over 90% of their combat power on the Eastern Front. Even if the Germans reposition a bit after the Liberation of France, could the WAllies of realistically made it to Berlin before the Soviets?

Close the Falsie Gap, focus on capturing Antwerp and have direct orders from both Churchill and FDR and you can feasibly have them get close to Berlin before the Soviets.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I'm making a preliminary assessment of where the Soviet and WAllies lines meet in such a snowball scenario. For now I've decided the OTL modern Polish-German border. It's just slightly east of Berlin, familiar and convenient. Is it realistic?

OTL the allies made really fast progress against the western defenses of Germany because the Nazis focused over 90% of their combat power on the Eastern Front. Even if the Germans reposition a bit after the Liberation of France, could the WAllies have realistically made it to Berlin before the Soviets?

The deeper Germany is into the USSR on D-Day, the further the WAllies can get - all else being equal. It's just a matter of distances.

And - 90% is not quite accurate. While most of the German manpower was on the Eastern Front, IIRC the ratio of "teeth" divisions (like the SS Panzer and other units that got the lion's share of equipment) is a bit more even. WAG is 1:1:3 Italian front:Western front:USSR, though as I say that's just my synthesis of what I've read.
So it comes down to more like 75% of total combat power than 90% - still a lopsided ratio, but more even especially when you consider that the WAllies were the ones who broke the Luftwaffe into a thousand tiny pieces.
 
if the western fron is too strong they're diverting from the eastern front to incrase defences there, slowing the british and american progress down and increasing the soviet progress.

the soviets and the allies are meeting west of berlin, no matter what.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
if the western fron is too strong they're diverting from the eastern front to incrase defences there, slowing the british and american progress down and increasing the soviet progress.

the soviets and the allies are meeting west of berlin, no matter what.

Not necessarily, actually - put it this way. Assuming that the invasion takes place as if like OTL, but in 1943 - and there's the historical German forces in France in 1943 to resist it.
That's only one or two divisions.
The Western Front promptly collapses, and if they're lucky the Germans can pull together enough forces from Italy or the Eastern Front to stabilize the situation on the Rhine.
If they're not lucky (and that's a possibility), then the Western Allies wreck the logistic support capability of the Reich by closing up the Rhine and wrecking the Ruhr's capacity to provide weapons of war to the Axis.

Either way, once things stabilize, the Western Allies are a few hundred miles from Berlin. The Soviets are much further - an entire summer offensive further away from Berlin than they were in OTL Jan 1945, even assuming they get Bagration-like success in 1943. And there's no one offensive in the second world war that can clear as much ground as the Soviets have to cover - simple logistics dictates they must use two offensive stages to get that far, even against ineffectual resistance, because they need to redeploy supplies forward and so on. An offensive can't just rumble forward at maximum speed for several hundred miles - and the Soviets are one more offensive push away from Berlin than the WAllies are, in this scenario.
As such, if the Western Allies want Berlin, they can get it.
 
rule of thumb, you can move your own troops a lot faster through land controlled and supported by you than through enemy held land. even in late 44 the germans were happily moving whole armies around.

what's the point in fighting with 99% of your army in the east while the british and americans take over everything west of the army?
 
Would the Germans surrender in such a scenario, if unconditional surrender wasn't demanded?

They'd pretty much know they were licked.

Would Japan agree to terms with the Allies as well- thinking it's better than the alternative (facing everyone on their own is suicidal, evenmore so than Japan was in OTL)
 

Saphroneth

Banned
rule of thumb, you can move your own troops a lot faster through land controlled and supported by you than through enemy held land. even in late 44 the germans were happily moving whole armies around.

what's the point in fighting with 99% of your army in the east while the british and americans take over everything west of the army?

Again with the ridiculously large fraction... the USSR handled the lion's share of Germany, but certainly not 99% or 90% of the combat power.

Anyway. The reason isn't that the Germans have trouble moving armies (they'll take a few weeks to bring them in to stabilize the front, just because of the needs of train-based movement and a Transport Plan) but the army movement speed I'm comparing here is Allies (western - with lots of resources and supplies out the wazoo) versus Allies (Soviet - with sheer numbers, less skill than OTL 1944/5 because it's 1943/4 respectively, and the same limits as OTL.)
The Western Allies have much less far to go to get to Berlin from their start point, than the USSR have to go to get to Berlin from THEIR start point. Berlin is closer to the Western front than the Eastern as of this alt-1943, and as such it'll take fewer offensive pushes.
Remember, OTL, both sides made about the same speed through crumbling German resistance in 1945, and once the Western Front has reached the Rhine the German economy collapses and the German army has whatever munitions it's already made plus the trickle from the Skoda works.
 

Maur

Banned
I'm making a preliminary assessment of where the Soviet and WAllies lines meet in such a snowball scenario. For now I've decided the OTL modern Polish-German border. It's just slightly east of Berlin, familiar and convenient. Is it realistic?

OTL the allies made really fast progress against the western defenses of Germany because the Nazis focused over 90% of their combat power on the Eastern Front. Even if the Germans reposition a bit after the Liberation of France, could the WAllies have realistically made it to Berlin before the Soviets?
In case either side gets to the German heartland, the other side is free to drive basically recon elements fast forward, meaning you should not have the end line outside Germany much, if at all.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
In case either side gets to the German heartland, the other side is free to drive basically recon elements fast forward, meaning you should not have the end line outside Germany much, if at all.

Now, this is an interesting one idea that just occurred to me - I'm not actually sure if the forces in the Ost were capable of doing things like using captured Western USSR factories for supplying local needs like munitions. Anyone have an idea?
 
I'm working on a timeline where Japan stays neutral through WW2. I'd like some outside opinions on what this does to the US entry into the war.

How long is it delayed?
Who does the declaring? Germany on US or US on Germany?

Any advice or help towards my TL is much appreciated :D

Sometime in the first half of 1942 probably.
 

Maur

Banned
Now, this is an interesting one idea that just occurred to me - I'm not actually sure if the forces in the Ost were capable of doing things like using captured Western USSR factories for supplying local needs like munitions. Anyone have an idea?
I dont know, but given that the arms industry had priority with evacuation, and that resource extraction industry was thoroughly wrecked, i doubt the area could supply anything significant without rebuilding.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I dont know, but given that the arms industry had priority with evacuation, and that resource extraction industry was thoroughly wrecked, i doubt the area could supply anything significant without rebuilding.

Right. So, once the German economy goes tits-up, then the only significant supply will be from Skoda works, whatever factories are left in the Reich, and possibly any factories in the Balkan minor Axis members.

That is, as they say, all she wrote. Though I think it at least possible that the final collapse of organized resistance finds the meeting line east of Berlin. (If the USSR are their OTL cheery selves to Partisan movements, they're going to have trouble moving that far West that quickly - and if they're not, then arguably that's better because Poland is less USSR-dominated post-war.)
 
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