Culture and everyday life in a post-WWII ATL Europe with no or lesser holocaust

I'm starting this thread because one particular question concerning my own timeline bothers me a lot. To explain in detail:

In a Europe where an alt-WWII was not as destructive and where the holocaust as we knew it in OTL didn't occur or occured only in a limited scope, what would European culture, everyday life and politics be like for the rest of the 20th century ?

----

Sub-questions that interests me, especially on a country-to-country basis:

How could Jewish minority parties evolve in post-WWII Europe ? Could we see a modernised continuation of various interwar era Jewish parties ?

How will the much greater survival of living Jewish culture (both religious and secular) influence the cultural and societal developments of the various countries ?

What about social dynamics, including intermarriage of ethnically or religiously Jewish citizens with non-Jewish ones ?

Will a more negative side-effect be that antisemitism is less discredited than in OTL (at least at first) ?

----

I think this is a question and concept that definitely needs exploring, as OTL post-WWII Europe basically had to get used to the thought that much of its entire Jewish population perished (with the exception of a few luckier countries). An ATL where Jewish persecutions during WWII were more a side effect than a deliberate policy is, on one hand, a more optimistic world, but on the other hand, I'm not sure how to portray it. I'm sure it might feel a bit alien in some of its elements, given how OTL's WWII changed European status quo in such drastic ways, and particularly for the most persecuted nationalities.

As far as these questions go, I have a particular focus on central Europe (Poland, Germany, us, Hungary, Austria, Czechia, Romania, etc., etc.), but feel free to also cover over countries that were hit hard by the holocaust during OTL WWII.

So, what are your ideas ? What would you suggest ? I know this is hard to quantify, because it's not based on data-crunching, but solely on imagination, historical knowledge and careful extrapolation, but I'd be really interested to hear your opinions on this.

Well, you are right. There probably will be more casual antisemitism. Until the American Civil Rights movement in the 1960s and the cultural and intellectual changes worldwide and then it's no longer cool.

And I'm assuming that with a smaller or no holocaust, Romani, Jehovah Witnesses, trade unionists, Communists, lesbian or gay persons or people so stereotyped, persons mentally ill or so stereotyped, etc., are not murdered either.

With more people alive, the world is simply a more interesting place. More music, books, films, potential friends, potential co-workers, and so on and so forth. And just maybe someone helps push a cure to a particular type of cancer further along?

GeographyDude said:

And I'm assuming that with a smaller or no holocaust, Romani, Jehovah Witnesses, trade unionists, Communists, lesbian or gay persons or people so stereotyped, persons mentally ill or so stereotyped, etc., are not murdered either.

Click to expand...

This is important. Are the changes strictly limited to Jews, or are Germany and the USSR both generally less genocidal, less willing (or in the USSR's case, perhaps less able due to the Red Army being pushed beyond the Volga by Germany and not managing to crawl beyond the 1939 border by the end of the war) to murder and ostracize chosen nationalities, people with a decent education and so on?

Yes, I think places like Ukraine and Belarus had a higher percentage of their citizens killed during the holocaust than any place else, and this includes Stalin during the 1930s. Either Stalin flat-out intended a famine, or he didn't lift one goddam finger to help once one was in progress.

Petike said:

How could Jewish minority parties evolve in post-WWII Europe ? Could we see a modernised continuation of various interwar era Jewish parties ?

How will the much greater survival of living Jewish culture (both religious and secular) influence the cultural and societal developments of the various countries ?

What about social dynamics, including intermarriage of ethnically or religiously Jewish citizens with non-Jewish ones ?

Will a more negative side-effect be that antisemitism is less discredited than in OTL (at least at first) ?

Click to expand...

The Bund will get more influence, given most of their electors are not getting exterminated TTL; the survival of Yiddish might insure more inflience of the German language and the non-extermination of six millions of persons might enable some persons to emerge as businessmen/scientists/whatever.

Depends on the details of this less-destructive World War. Shortening the war via a failed German assault on France will have a different result then shortening the war via Barbarossa self-destructing at the Dvina-Denieper river line.

GeographyDude said:

Yes, I think places like Ukraine and Belarus had a higher percentage of their citizens killed during the holocaust than any place else, and this includes Stalin during the 1930s. Either Stalin flat-out intended a famine, or he didn't lift one goddam finger to help once one was in progress.

Click to expand...

Zaius said:

This is important. Are the changes strictly limited to Jews, or are Germany and the USSR both generally less genocidal, less willing (or in the USSR's case, perhaps less able due to the Red Army being pushed beyond the Volga by Germany and not managing to crawl beyond the 1939 border by the end of the war) to murder and ostracize chosen nationalities, people with a decent education and so on?

Click to expand...

To explain further: The OTL USSR doesn't exist in my setting and though what power blocks exists after the collapse of Russia have enough power to commit an atrocity here or there, there won't be any comfortable and easy bullying of Ukrainians and Jews in TTL as was in OTL. Germany does fall to fascism during the interwar period and starts another world war, but nazism is stillborn in the timeline. Furthermore, Germany's regime isn't as obsessed with destroying Jewish citizens and culture, even though they still harass and murder a lot of central European Jews (and other nationalities/groups they deem "parasites" or "foreign agents").

ObssesedNuker said:

Depends on the details of this less-destructive World War. Shortening the war via a failed German assault on France will have a different result then shortening the war via Barbarossa self-destructing at the Dvina-Denieper river line.

Click to expand...

France still gets mostly overrun in my timeline, as well as a big chunk of Poland, almost the entirety of the Czech lands and several other countries neighbouring Germany (BENELUX states, Scandinavians, etc.).

GeographyDude said:

Well, you are right. There probably will be more casual antisemitism. Until the American Civil Rights movement in the 1960s and the cultural and intellectual changes worldwide and then it's no longer cool.

And I'm assuming that with a smaller or no holocaust, Romani, Jehovah Witnesses, trade unionists, Communists, lesbian or gay persons or people so stereotyped, persons mentally ill or so stereotyped, etc., are not murdered either.

With more people alive, the world is simply a more interesting place. More music, books, films, potential friends, potential co-workers, and so on and so forth. And just maybe someone helps push a cure to a particular type of cancer further along?

Click to expand...

Definitely one of the things I am aiming for by creating this thread. Personally, I am not that drastically interested in the precise wartime developments, as I am in its aftermath. I really am unsure on how to portray a Europe where there wasn't a massive and deadly break in continuity between the pre-WWII Jewish element and post-war one.

I guess I could use those European countries that had few Jewish losses as a template for a rough idea ? For instance, the jewish communities in the United Kingdom ? (Who were, after all, in relative safety and are still among the largest Jewish communities in Europe after the end of OTL WWII.)

Any more ideas on this ?

I myself often wonder what it would be like if synagogues and churches opened and working side-by-side in most cities was still a common sight.

In terms of popular culture, how would literature, music and filmmaking be affected ? Would traditional klezmer music and klezmer jazz be a more widespread and common thing in this timeline ? (Alongside some other fictional pop music styles I've made up, like "debris".)

How secular would most of European Jewish society be ? Would it be a logical further continuation of trends from the pre-WWII, thus somewhat mirroring the developments among Europeans of other religious faiths ?

Would efforts to create a separate Jewish state be dampened in this timeline ? Would we still see efforts of the more firmly zionist Jewish settlers in modern Palestine try to create at least an autonomous region of sort within the local British mandate (or a later LoN/UN-equivalent mandate) ?

There would be no israel and the jewish lobbies in the west would be severly cut back in influence for one.
The balfaur declaration exsited for years but only after the holocaust was anything done. If no holocaust the main reason for a jewish homeland goes away since israel was supposed to be a place for jews to go so that shit never happens.

Petike said:

Would efforts to create a separate Jewish state be dampened in this timeline ? Would we still see efforts of the more firmly zionist Jewish settlers in modern Palestine try to create at least an autonomous region of sort within the local British mandate (or a later LoN/UN-equivalent mandate) ?

Click to expand...

Those settlers won't necessarily be alone. A number of European countries may support the establishment of an Israel to faciliate the emigration of their own Jewish populations.

But what if there is no drive for Jewish immigration in this world ? In my TL, I can only think of a few countries that might want to "get rid of" their Jewish citizens via more peaceful means. They'd probably support an ATL establishment of Israel. Most of the European countries, though ? No, I don't think they'd be in a major hurry to support it.

Petike said:

How will the much greater survival of living Jewish culture (both religious and secular) influence the cultural and societal developments of the various countries ?

Click to expand...

It depends on the level on antisemitism,on acceptances of Jewish culture by the main culture (or the rest of cultures),and of course on the acceptances of Jews at the individual level in the respective country’s.

Petike said:

Will a more negative side-effect be that antisemitism is less discredited than in OTL (at least at first) ?

Click to expand...

Yes but at the same time there is the posibility that antisemitism doesn’t rise to the same level as in otl,so you could have a world where yes antisemitism is not as discredited as it was in otl,but in the sometime never was as popular.

Petike said:

In terms of popular culture, how would literature, music and filmmaking be affected ?

Click to expand...

On one side you have the positive effect of cultures keeping interacting and creating now things,but the other side coin is that those development main not spread or become as known,There is one thing to be a musician,writer, ... in France or US and another thing do be one In Slovakia or Romania,when it comes to popularity (or influence),take Emil Cioran or Constantin Brancusi who yes there where Romanian
but they become known because they emigrated to France.or the DADAists Tristan Tzara and Marcel Janco where Jews from Romania,but if there where to stay in Romania chance are they will not have become as known(and influence) as they become.

Petike said:

Would traditional klezmer music and klezmer jazz be a more widespread and common thing in this timeline ? (Alongside some other fictional pop music styles I've made up, like "debris".)

Click to expand...

In real life is a question of at the right time at the right place,for your time-line just put the right people at the right place,at the right time.

Petike said:

How secular would most of European Jewish society be ? Would it be a logical further continuation of trends from the pre-WWII, thus somewhat mirroring the developments among Europeans of other religious faiths ?

Click to expand...

First answerer i will give is an yes it will fallow the rest of Europe,but at the same time it could also be a no (or a yes and no),because you could have a country where the Jewish culture (the no-religious part) is absorb in the main culture,thus for some religion becomes reaming distinct characteristic (or the main one)

Petike said:

I'm starting this thread because one particular question concerning my own timeline bothers me a lot. To explain in detail:

In a Europe where an alt-WWII was not as destructive and where the holocaust as we knew it in OTL didn't occur or occured only in a limited scope, what would European culture, everyday life and politics be like for the rest of the 20th century ?

Click to expand...

One point: I think that the moral impact of a variant Holocaust would not be strictly proportional to its magnitude.

A "moderate" Holocaust with "only" 1M dead could have a moral impact about the same as OTL's, but would leave a vastly greater number of survivors, which has many consequences.

The relative influence of Zionism and the volume of emigration to Palestine change. Obviously, the worse the persecutions, the more incentive to emigrate - but the fewer potential emigrants.

Another question is the extent of non-lethal persecution: forced migration to ghettos, mass conscription for slave labor, formal exclusion from professions etc, beatings and looting.

This has effects on various segments of east European Jewry. For example if the Jewish communities are physically uprooted and disrupted, this could break down some of the close-knit rabbi-dominated Orthodox communities. At the other end, Jewish exclusions would hit hardest against the assimilated Jewish community.

National variations also come into it. The Jewish community of Hungary was almost untouched until fall 1944, when the retreating German army seized power from the Hungarian government that was about to make peace with the USSR. During the next few months, the Germans and Hungary's "Arrow-Cross" fascists deported and murdered most of Hungary's Jews. If Germany isn't full-bore exterminationist, it's probable that Hungary's Jews survive intact.

Romania, OTOH, is likely to murder a fair number of Jews anyway. Romania was less interested than Germany in exterminating Jews (about half of Romanian Jews survived), but more murderous on its own account than Hungary or Italy.

Rich Rostrom said:

One point: I think that the moral impact of a variant Holocaust would not be strictly proportional to its magnitude. A "moderate" Holocaust with "only" 1M dead could have a moral impact about the same as OTL's, but would leave a vastly greater number of survivors, which has many consequences.

Click to expand...

This is something I am personally hoping for with regards to my timeline. You've pretty much hit the nail on the head when it comes to understanding why I started this thread. Great.

Rich Rostrom said:

The relative influence of Zionism and the volume of emigration to Palestine change. Obviously, the worse the persecutions, the more incentive to emigrate - but the fewer potential emigrants.

Click to expand...

Logically.

Rich Rostrom said:

Another question is the extent of non-lethal persecution: forced migration to ghettos, mass conscription for slave labor, formal exclusion from professions etc, beatings and looting.

Click to expand...

This is something I have done a few write-ups for, in an effort to make it fairly realistic. While some of the persecuted Jews in my timeline will still have it hard, they won't it as impossible as in OTL to fend for themselves, outsmart their would-be opressors and even fight back.

Generally speaking, the WWII of my timeline is much more European-centered than in OTL, and thus has a bit more similarities in scope with WWI than was the case for the two world wars of OTL.

Rich Rostrom said:

This has effects on various segments of east European Jewry. For example if the Jewish communities are physically uprooted and disrupted, this could break down some of the close-knit rabbi-dominated Orthodox communities. At the other end, Jewish exclusions would hit hardest against the assimilated Jewish community.

Click to expand...

Thanks, these are really helpful points !

(And yeah, it is true that Judaism's relations with Orthodox churches was usually less strained than western ones.)

user23123 said:

It depends on the level on antisemitism,on acceptances of Jewish culture by the main culture (or the rest of cultures),and of course on the acceptances of Jews at the individual level in the respective country’s.

Click to expand...

Rich Rostrom said:

National variations also come into it.

Click to expand...

But of course. That's one thing that I try to look out for in particular.

Rich Rostrom said:

The Jewish community of Hungary was almost untouched until fall 1944, when the retreating German army seized power from the Hungarian government that was about to make peace with the USSR. During the next few months, the Germans and Hungary's "Arrow-Cross" fascists deported and murdered most of Hungary's Jews. If Germany isn't full-bore exterminationist, it's probable that Hungary's Jews survive intact.

Click to expand...

I know, right. Part of the changes in my timeline will be the much greater survival of Hungarian Jews in particular. Even in spite of the weaker ATL Holocaust attempt, Hungary will still probably have one of the largest surviving Jewish minorities in all of central Europe.

Rich Rostrom said:

Romania, OTOH, is likely to murder a fair number of Jews anyway. Romania was less interested than Germany in exterminating Jews (about half of Romanian Jews survived), but more murderous on its own account than Hungary or Italy.

Click to expand...

Hm, what gives you that certainty that Romanians would be more hostile to Jews than other nations in the region ?

user23123 said:

Yes but at the same time there is the posibility that antisemitism doesn’t rise to the same level as in otl,so you could have a world where yes antisemitism is not as discredited as it was in otl,but in the sometime never was as popular.

Click to expand...

That's my train of thought as well. I don't think it's particularly implausible for antisemitism getting discredited either way later on, along with other forms of ethnic/racial/religious prejudice. Antisemites might hang along as slightly accepted for a little bit longer, but not that much even when compared with OTL. While in OTL, the nazis and their ilk deeply exploited some pent-up antisemitism that existed in many countries of Europe, had they and their fifth columnists whipped up as much hate speeching, I'm pretty confident antisemites would generally remain fairly ineffective as a group of radicals. Furthermore, it's not like the majority of citizens in countries affected by the Holocaust were eager to stand in line and help with deportations. While you had bad apples and traitors like that in virtually every country occupied or puppetised by the Axis, they were always a vocal and politically powerful minority, but in no way a representative one.

user23123 said:

On one side you have the positive effect of cultures keeping interacting and creating now things,but the other side coin is that those development main not spread or become as known,There is one thing to be a musician,writer, ... in France or US and another thing do be one In Slovakia or Romania,when it comes to popularity (or influence),take Emil Cioran or Constantin Brancusi who yes there where Romanian but they become known because they emigrated to France.or the DADAists Tristan Tzara and Marcel Janco where Jews from Romania,but if there where to stay in Romania chance are they will not have become as known(and influence) as they become.

Click to expand...

Very good point, one of the best in this discussion so far, IMHO !

Particularly the bolded part is something I might have nearly overlooked if you hadn't brought it to my attention.

user23123 said:

In real life is a question of at the right time at the right place,for your time-line just put the right people at the right place,at the right time.

Click to expand...

Very true. The butterflies, oh, the butterflies...

user23123 said:

First answerer i will give is an yes it will fallow the rest of Europe,but at the same time it could also be a no (or a yes and no),because you could have a country where the Jewish culture (the no-religious part) is absorb in the main culture,thus for some religion becomes reaming distinct characteristic (or the main one)

Click to expand...

This assimilation thing basically happened in the post-WWII years of OTL, where many of the surviving Jewish citizens who didn't migrate to Israel returned home and stayed. However, in East Block countries in particular, they were unfortunately often forced to hide their Judaism or not focus on it or be too open about it in public. This led to the ethnic/cultural assimilation of many pre-war central European Jews into the majority populace of the other nationalities. And despite some of them having embraced their Jewish identity openly again since the 1990s, a lot of people with Jewish ancestry had abandoned the whole identity over course of several decades and assimilated near-completely. My guess for the non-EB countries of central Europe during the Cold War is that it was slightly less negative and that surviving Jews who decide to stay avoided an almost all-out assimilation.

Petike said:

But of course. That's one thing that I try to look out for in particular.

Click to expand...

In the case of Romania the antisemitism can be split in to two group the one that preached and the ones that acted,and while about the latter ones in can be said that beside the internal factor,there where also external ones that help the raise and willingness to act,had external factor and it was inspired by external factors (the external factors are the rise of fascism in Italy that inspired the legionary movement,the rise of Nazism and Hitler in Germany,that also inspired the Legionary moment and the latter Iron Guard and another external factor was the Soviet Ultimatum and the Romania response to it),the first one was more of a internal one.
Now for the first ones (the internal factors) here we have the intellectuals and there list can begun with Mihai Eminescu was an antisemitism and xenophobe,and whose ideas where later use by the legionary movement as inspiration and justification,it also must be said that Eminescu antisemitism was an economic one,the economic antisemitism is one of the characteristics of Romanian antisemitism how is not necessary one of religion or ideology as much as it is one of economics, and the there are A.C. Cuza, A.C. Popovici, Nicolae Iorga, Nichifor Crainic, Nae Ionescu,Octavian Goga etc.

By acted i refer to the ones that had taken the step from the verbal antisemitism to the physical one and by the ones that did not acted i refer to those that did not take the step from the verbal antisemitism to the physical one,but at the same time it must be remember that the ones that did not acted played a very important role in the formation and the inspiration of the antisemitism moments that acted,if you wish the two groups here as flow the ones that called for the stone to be rise and the ones that heard there call and acted.

I don't know if you come across it or have read it but i believe it can be helpful helpful http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/abou...nglish/1.1_roots_of_romanian_antisemitism.pdf

Sorry to revive this thread after three months, but I just wanted to thank you for your thoughts on where Romania would stand when it comes to antisemitism and dealing with it in this ATL scenario.

Well, a question for the OP and all participants. How many fewer deaths would there have to be to lessen the cultural shock compared with OTL (because the ATL people would have no concept they are lucky compared to OTL)? Or is it more of a question that particular methods (death camps and or gas chambers) would need to be removed more than numbers to make the holocaust stand out less as a cultural event?

I think all factors need to be taken into account. Both the lesser death toll and the murder methods. To be frank, in my timeline, there are efforts at mechanised mass murder, but they are not as effectivelly organised or carried out in OTL (nor as deeply ideologically driven), so more people have luck "escaping through the cracks". Nevertheless, a few million people perish due to various ethnic cleansing attempts by several combatant countries.

Petike said:

Sorry to revive this thread after three months, but I just wanted to thank you for your thoughts on where Romania would stand when it comes to antisemitism and dealing with it in this ATL scenario.

Click to expand...

There are a few question that have to be answer first like was there any change in the per-war Romania ? Did anyone tried to do something against antisemitism ? or the rise of the fascist movement in general ? Now i have to mention that there was someone that did try to stop the rise of the Legion and Iron Guard that someone was Ion G Duca ,but in otl he was assassinated by them (the legion), precisely because of his action against them.
Then did any thing happened to Carol II ? because this "genius" was informed that the Legion plans to kill the the prime minister I.G Duca,but his decision was to let Duca be killed,and then the "genius" is not innocence when it comes to the rise of the legion.
What happened during the war ? Is the country lead by an antisemitic government ?
As for after the war,it depends what happens with Romania politiclay dose it becomes a Soviet satellite just like in OTL,if this is true i don't thing much will change in this ATL when it comes to antisemitism.In the case of free Romania it depends on what happens with the economy ? Then there is the emigration,is there a large emigration of Jews from Romania ? And then there are the external factors,the attitude to antisemitism in US and US allied Europe,since Romania will what to be part of that US allied Europe (be it formal or informal).

Going to your previous answers i understated that there will be no USSR and that Romania will not be involved in the war,this will mean that some of the external factors for Romania to reach peak of here anti-Semitic actions.

The situation in pre-war Romania was as fallowed it was backward (and even bankrupt),both politically (and social) and economically.
Politically because establishment was incapable of finding solution to problems of corruption,lack of education,backwardness of the agriculture and ,lack of an industry capable to support the modernisation of the agriculture and the country in general.
Social because in the Romania there was a break or a wall between the various parts of the country and society,it was a country with bad and broken electoral system,a county where officers saw the physical punishment of soldiers as something normal,where police and gendarmerie also so physical violence as something normal,where the bat was an political assets to be used in the campaigns.Another symptom and both a cause of here bankruptcy was in my opinion also the nationalism of the political and intellectual establishment.

So with out the external factors there will still be the economic one how will not be fixed until the country industrialises and can support a development and break the poverty trap.And then there are the other reasons like populism and nationalism,of the intellectually and political establishment,the thinks is that someone has to come and point to the fact that the king is naked,the problem is the someone will point is finger at the king,and i expect a lot of resistance to the acceptance of the fact that the king is naked.

Another good think is that with the external pressure taken out,the chance of Antonescu and the legion to take power,will also be diminished,Only diminished because there bankruptcy reasons will still be there.