Bf110 not replaced by Me210

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
  • Start date

Deleted member 1487

What if the Bf110 was not phased out of production in 1941? It had over 1000 units produced in 1940, but only 594 in 1941 and 501 in 1942 and 641 in 1943:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_aircraft_production_during_World_War_II
In 1941 it was supposed to be phased out for the Me210, which was not forthcoming due to its mechanical issues.

Had production numbers been maintained due to say the RLM not ordering the Me210 to be place into production before the prototype flew, exposing its horrible handling characteristics, the Bf110 would probably have had uninterrupted production due to the Me210 not being ordered until mid-1942 and put into production as the Me410 in 1943. In the meantime the Bf110 would probably have improved its output numbers in 1941 due to not winding down production in the second half of the year, which barring further production resources, would have only made gains in output by experience and rationalizing production methods. So from the 1006 of 1940, a non-phased out Bf110 would have resulted in 1200 or so aircraft in 1941. Probably about 1300-1400 in 1942, and a collapse down to 800 in 1943 as the Me410 gets into production. That 600 more aircraft in 1941, ~800 in 1942, and about 150 more in 1943.

Overall a gain of about 1550 aircraft in terms of Bf110s, but the Me210 caused a fall in Bf109 output, due to contradictory orders IOTL and also some lost Ju88 production, so probably an additional 600+ Bf109s during this period and ~500 or so more Ju88s. In all about 2650 more aircraft that wouldn't have been produced otherwise.

So what impact do these make? In terms of the night fighter force quite a lot; they were severely impacted by the loss of Bf110 production in 1941-43, as several units outside of the night fighters required Bf110s and the limited numbers available meant they couldn't get enough all around and the NF forces suffered the most.
Source:
http://www.amazon.com/History-German-night-fighter-1917-1945/dp/0354012479

Overall it would allow a large expansion in 1941-42 of the night fighters, which has a significant impact on the night air war over Europe, as Erhard Milch, head of the RLM, basically mandated the Bf110 as the only major night fighter model, with Ju88C heavy fighters reserved for specialist units both for day and night. As the intruder missions were cancelled in 1941, they ended up flying long range cover for convoys in the Mediterranean.
So the Bf110 increasingly carries the NF force until 1943 when the Ju88 dedicated NFers become a major part of the NF force. The impact of this could be pretty huge, especially for production, as with there being several hundred more NFers operating against the British during their 1000 bomber raids in 1942 they loss rates would have gone up significantly, which would have had a negative feedback loop for Bomber Command in terms of gaining experienced crews and damaging German production. The extra fighters would also enable units based in Germany to have more operational aircraft available, rather than being grounded by lack of working aircraft, which was a continual problem for Bf110 units after 1940. The additional Bf109s and Ju88s really will be only used as replacements, rather than for forming new units IMHO due to the relatively low extra numbers, but that will increase operational rates significantly where ever they are allocated.

Until the end of 1943 the Bf110 was a pretty effective night fighter and even daylight fighter. The extra numbers will only help in terms of operations, but the primary benefit of greater numbers will only be felt in terms of the NF force and for the other daylight units probably just greater operational numbers at any time. Up until the major wearing down in terms of pilots killed in 1944 (and to a degree in 1943) shortages of pilots wouldn't be an issue preventing the usage of the extra aircraft, but from 1944 on things would be problematic. Ironically the extra shootdown of British bombers (or even American over Europe prior to 1944) would increase materials available for German industry, as they harvested wrecks for anything useful.

In terms of increased effectiveness is that any chance that the several hundred extra Bf110s would blunt the night bombing offensive by the British enough to get them taking off that duty and placed into other roles, such as shorter ranged escorted daylight missions in France and the Lowland or anti-sub operations for the Atlantic? Perhaps a greater British emphasis on the Mosquito from 1943 and a shift from city bombing to going after the German oil industry in the Ruhr? AFAIK the British had the ability to bomb that industry with Mosquitos relatively accurately from mid-1943 on. Their accuracy wasn't great, but the cumulative effect into 1944 would take a heavy toll on the Luftwaffe. Would too many losses to Bomber Command cause Arthur Harris to lose his job?
 
Until the end of 1943 the Bf110 was a pretty effective night fighter and even daylight fighter.

This seems like a new-found opinion. Didn't we argue this before, from opposite viewpoints?

Was the German Himmelbett system designed to handle vastly increased numbers of pretty effective nightfighters?
 

Deleted member 1487

This seems like a new-found opinion. Didn't we argue this before, from opposite viewpoints?

Was the German Himmelbett system designed to handle vastly increased numbers of pretty effective nightfighters?

I wanted to explore it from the other side.

As to Himmelbett my reading suggests that it was less effective than it should have been due to lack of NFs. So yes, there was significant slack provided the aircraft and pilots were there.
 

thaddeus

Donor
this is a much more realistic scenario than your last https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=320910
since the LW just continues production not requiring any POD "fixes" for the 210.

(and as noted in earlier threads it is not just the Germans that would have more aircraft but other Axis countries that could be better supplied)

what other aircraft production might be affected? would the HE-219 and TA-154 programs even be started? even though on paper at least they had advantages there would already be a large supply of fighters ITTL.
 

Deleted member 1487

what other aircraft production might be affected? would the HE-219 and TA-154 programs even be started? even though on paper at least they had advantages there would already be a large supply of fighters ITTL.
Sure, both were replacements for the increasingly underperforming Bf110 by 1943 (in reality 1944 and never respectively). The Ta-154 would eat up production resources and never become operational and the He-219 would be operational, but a minor variant just as IOTL. Bf110 production has nothing to do with that.
 
If you go with the assumptions:

1) You can have more ME110s, maybe hundreds more by June 1941, and will continue to have even more hundreds extra throughout 1941

2) You have a certain cap on the number of pilots

Then considering that Barbarossa and the Med generally will involve long range multi purpose missions would it make sense to take some Me109 units and make them ME110???

The ME110 is going to deal with most Soviet opposition and the extra range (i.e ability to fly from airfields further back) means more sorties over the front (with a more multi purpose aircraft) are possible even if the total number of pilots is capped.

Even in the med you are dealing with Hurricanes and P40s until well into 1942.
 

Deleted member 1487

If you go with the assumptions:

1) You can have more ME110s, maybe hundreds more by June 1941, and will continue to have even more hundreds extra throughout 1941
This actually won't happen due the Messerschmitt not winding down Bf110 production starting after Barbarossa; they were producing at capacity until then. So OTL output until about June or so then IOTL there was a drop off that won't happen ITTL.

2) You have a certain cap on the number of pilots

Then considering that Barbarossa and the Med generally will involve long range multi purpose missions would it make sense to take some Me109 units and make them ME110???

The ME110 is going to deal with most Soviet opposition and the extra range (i.e ability to fly from airfields further back) means more sorties over the front (with a more multi purpose aircraft) are possible even if the total number of pilots is capped.

Even in the med you are dealing with Hurricanes and P40s until well into 1942.

AFAIK if the Bf110 pilots used their Bf110s effectively they were useful against the less modern RAF planes in the Med. So using some there would not be a bad idea, especially as a strike fighter that could torpedo, bomber, and strafe.

However the biggest need and demand for them was in Germany for the night fighter forces, but I think some extra would end up in Russia for sure due to their effectiveness there until about 1943. However their role would pretty much be what the Ju88C was used force: train busting, airfield attacks, strafing, etc. It would not be a long range escort fighter or really anything but a light bomber.
 
Could not bothering with the Me 210 lead to more focus being put on the Heinkel He 219 Owl? Would it be worth it for Germany to try and build He 219s earlier and in greater numbers?
 

Deleted member 1487

Could not bothering with the Me 210 lead to more focus being put on the Heinkel He 219 Owl? Would it be worth it for Germany to try and build He 219s earlier and in greater numbers?

Arguably, though it was not as good as popular history likes to think. It was complicated to manufacture and Heinkel was already building other things; the RLM was not impressed with them as a result of the He177 fiasco, so I'm not sure it would be worth it or anything would be that different from OTL. Frankly the Bf110 is fine until 1943 then the upgraded Ju88R and G would be in the pipeline and better for the job, not to mention easier to manufacture and already in production so far less disruption. I'd like to see the He177 dropped sooner and Heinkel build Ju88s instead of He111s and 177s. Especially NF versions and Ju188/388s.
 
On a side note, would it be worth it for the Germans to put emphasis on helping the Italians their twin engine fighters? If production of the Ro.57 started in 1940 and the Ro.58 in 41, could they have had a significant impact on the Med?

Also if the Germans decided to adopted either fighter for themselves would they have been helpful? I remember you mentioning in some thread that the Germans should have adopted the Fiat G.55.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMAM_Ro.57
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMAM_Ro.58

thanks
 

Deleted member 1487

On a side note, would it be worth it for the Germans to put emphasis on helping the Italians their twin engine fighters? If production of the Ro.57 started in 1940 and the Ro.58 in 41, could they have had a significant impact on the Med?

Also if the Germans decided to adopted either fighter for themselves would they have been helpful? I remember you mentioning in some thread that the Germans should have adopted the Fiat G.55.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMAM_Ro.57
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMAM_Ro.58

thanks

The Fiat G.55 was better than the Me109, but it took 4 times as long to build. The Italian twins were designed too late to matter and wouldn't get into production in enough time to matter. Better to license German aircraft and engine tech sooner and get the Italians to build those, but the serious problem was their terrible industry, which, starting in early 1943 was being bombed to oblivion making everything worse. The best thing the Germans could have done there was not DoW the US and do everything they could to make it harder for the US politically to get involved in the war, which means Hitler not being in charge and a leader being willing to deescalate the war with Britain unilaterally. The IMAM Ro.58 would have been a decent aircraft, but it wouldn't have been in service until 1944, so it was just better for the Germans to build the Me410 and have it in wide service by 1944. Better yet by that point not build the Me410 at all, rather focus on SE fighters like the FW190C or D. Dropping the Do335 program wouldn't hurt, as would killing the Ar440 as a waste. Not building the TA-154 would help too and focusing all those resources on the Ju88 late models.
 
The Wiki article doesn't seem to elaborate on the initial cooling troubles with the Ro.58, nor mention the fact that the very high wing loading made the craft difficult to fly, and made it a ride for experts only, in its definitive form. The final cooling system still looks chintzy to me. The Bf-110 had a generous somewhat thick wing, and the Me-410 wing was smaller and thinner. I don't think that the next step down-sizing was better.
 
The Wiki article doesn't seem to elaborate on the initial cooling troubles with the Ro.58, nor mention the fact that the very high wing loading made the craft difficult to fly, and made it a ride for experts only, in its definitive form. The final cooling system still looks chintzy to me. The Bf-110 had a generous somewhat thick wing, and the Me-410 wing was smaller and thinner. I don't think that the next step down-sizing was better.

thanks for the added info:D
 
Would too many losses to Bomber Command cause Arthur Harris to lose his job?

No, Bomber Command was shot out of the sky early in the war and continued to be shot down several times over - the chances of surviving a bomber command tour of duty were slim. However for a long time it was all that the British had in terms of a second front so it had to continue. Pictures of Germany burning made great propaganda. Also the losses were kept secret so there was no lack of volunteers for the crews
 
I've wondered what it would take to have the RAF introduce an effective ball turret. This could be a start........nah.
 

thaddeus

Donor
Could not bothering with the Me 210 lead to more focus being put on the Heinkel He 219 Owl? Would it be worth it for Germany to try and build He 219s earlier and in greater numbers?

Arguably, though it was not as good as popular history likes to think. It was complicated to manufacture and Heinkel was already building other things; the RLM was not impressed with them as a result of the He177 fiasco, so I'm not sure it would be worth it or anything would be that different from OTL. Frankly the Bf110 is fine until 1943 then the upgraded Ju88R and G would be in the pipeline and better for the job, not to mention easier to manufacture and already in production so far less disruption. I'd like to see the He177 dropped sooner and Heinkel build Ju88s instead of He111s and 177s. Especially NF versions and Ju188/388s.

ITTL the 110 is produced until the development of the 210/410 has progressed? wouldn't that tend to "freeze" the HE-219 and other fighters out? since the fiasco of OTL 210 was what created something of a flux in fighter development?

to the HE-177, that was almost unbelievable that so many got built. my thinking it would have been better to just build off the prewar airplanes (FW-200, JU-290, and BV-222 even.) yes they all had faults but were all functional and my understanding the JU-290 could have been modified with bomber bay?
 
to the HE-177, that was almost unbelievable that so many got built. my thinking it would have been better to just build off the prewar airplanes (FW-200, JU-290, and BV-222 even.) yes they all had faults but were all functional and my understanding the JU-290 could have been modified with bomber bay?

It looks to me as if, after 1941 or possibly early '42, the Germans couldn't really afford the luxury of building any four-engined heavy bombers.

After that point, Germany's needs were: to protect its own airspace (especially at night), support its armies, and interdict fairly near-range shipping (in the Med, for instance). All of that can best be done by SE fighters, twin engined night fighters, and twin engined light bombers of various sorts. Four-engined heavies are just a needless diversion of resources.

The problem is that adopting this stance would amount to an admission by Nazi leaders that the rest of the war would pretty much be fought defensively. And that the Nazis were not willing to admit.
 
On a side note, would it be worth it for the Germans to put emphasis on helping the Italians their twin engine fighters? If production of the Ro.57 started in 1940 and the Ro.58 in 41, could they have had a significant impact on the Med?

Also if the Germans decided to adopted either fighter for themselves would they have been helpful? I remember you mentioning in some thread that the Germans should have adopted the Fiat G.55.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMAM_Ro.57
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMAM_Ro.58

thanks

The Italians could have been more useful with the designs for the next generation heavy fighter, with the SM 91 being probably the easier to develop as a night fighter/heavy fighter, and the Caproni Ca380 the one with the greater potential.
In the Bf110 time frame, the clear Italian Might Have Been is the Fiat CR25.
http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v3/v3n1/italtwin.html

Sm91.jpg
 

thaddeus

Donor
It looks to me as if, after 1941 or possibly early '42, the Germans couldn't really afford the luxury of building any four-engined heavy bombers.

After that point, Germany's needs were: to protect its own airspace (especially at night), support its armies, and interdict fairly near-range shipping (in the Med, for instance). All of that can best be done by SE fighters, twin engined night fighters, and twin engined light bombers of various sorts. Four-engined heavies are just a needless diversion of resources.

no HE-177. build the OTL number of FW-200s (approx. 250) and an equal number of JU-290s (instead of the handful built.) that would have been worthwhile to attack Allied shipping.

maybe a couple dozen BV-222s would have been useful..

instead of wasted efforts on the "mistel" concept a better developed version of the HE-111Z twin fuselage design might have actually worked.
 

Deleted member 1487

no HE-177. build the OTL number of FW-200s (approx. 250) and an equal number of JU-290s (instead of the handful built.) that would have been worthwhile to attack Allied shipping.

maybe a couple dozen BV-222s would have been useful..

instead of wasted efforts on the "mistel" concept a better developed version of the HE-111Z twin fuselage design might have actually worked.

Or 4800 more Bf109s. The Ju290 was twice as heavy as the He177. It was a converted transport. Basically it should have been used for Fritz-X attacks on Soviet industry/electrical infrastructure, rather than wasted in the Atlantic.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top