Treaty of Brest-Litovsk post-CP victory map!

Scarecrow · May 1, 2006

stupid laptop...crashed before i could post this...have to type it agian...based upon the *actual ToBL, and my maps of said Treaty

anyway, post WW1 where the CP win. not to sure of the POD, but I am thinking of having France collapse into revolution in 1917-18. anyway here is easern Europe.

as you can see, based on the original ToBL maps. the Baltic states are marked for German Annexation. Poland has been given Galicia.
Egypt, taken from the British, is a co-German/Turkish dominion, simply because i think that with Baku and Daghestan under thier belt, the ottomans may try to proceed with a 'pan-Turkish movement'. as Vehib, Turkish army commander in the caucasus said "You can see that destiny draws Turkey from the west to the east. We left the Balkans, we are also leaving Africa, but we must extend towards the east. our blood, our religion, our language is there. And this has an irrisistable magnitism. Our brothers are in Baku, Daghestand, Turkestand and Azerbaijan.'

also, Germany may want the cannal, although i dont know how well thier far eastern colonies will fare...

Not to sure about who should be on what thrones, nor the peace in the west...

Peter Cowan · May 1, 2006

Interesting. I would imagine the map of Western Europe would also look rather different.

I have a slight quibble regarding Egypt - the British had defeated the Turks and were advancing in Palestine and Mesopotamia - forcing them out of here might be a treaty too far unless the UK had suffered a major catastrophe as well.

MerryPrankster · May 1, 2006

Yay! Stick it to the Bolsheviks!

Peter Cowan · May 1, 2006

Just noticed another not so minor quibble - I think that part of your Kingdom of Poland seems to have been part of Pre-WW1 Austro-Hungary. I'm not sure acquisition of Libya makes up for losing that territory.

Scarecrow · May 1, 2006

Peter Cowan said:
Interesting. I would imagine the map of Western Europe would also look rather different.

I have a slight quibble regarding Egypt - the British had defeated the Turks and were advancing in Palestine and Mesopotamia - forcing them out of here might be a treaty too far unless the UK had suffered a major catastrophe as well.

I deliberatly left Western Europe Blank, because Im not to sure exactly what to have there. Lux. is definatly consumed into Germany, not to sure about Belgium. may be useful to have a Waloon or Flemish kingdom as a kind of barrier against France, or Belgium may just be outright annexed.

Egypt...I wasnt to sure, but i guess it can be left British, perhaps with concesions elseware, such as sub-Saharan africa, and perhaps a de-militerized Canal zone or something.

MerryPrankster · May 1, 2006

Peter Cowan said:
Just noticed another not so minor quibble - I think that part of your Kingdom of Poland seems to have been part of Pre-WW1 Austro-Hungary. I'm not sure acquisition of Libya makes up for losing that territory.

If the CP wins at a very late date, Austria might well disintegrate. Germany might grab the German-speaking lands and Hungary and whatever Poland the victorious CP creates might inherit the rest.

Assuming A-H survives, how well could they manage an African colony?

Scarecrow · May 1, 2006

Peter Cowan said:
Just noticed another not so minor quibble - I think that part of your Kingdom of Poland seems to have been part of Pre-WW1 Austro-Hungary. I'm not sure acquisition of Libya makes up for losing that territory.

realy? it should just have the Kingdom of galicia...were abouts exactly?

Peter Cowan · May 1, 2006

Most of Galicia was Austro-Hungarian since one or other of the Polish partitions. The Russians captured Lemberg (L'vov or L'Viv) in 1914 and besieged Przemsyl (capturing it in March 1915).

I suppose one could argue that as it was retaken mostly by the Germans after Austro-Hungarian attacks failed, they might have some say in its disposition but making an ally surrender its own territory (as opposed to giving up conquests) is hardly politic. Then again a victorious Kaiser's Germany might be arrogant enough to do that.
I'd say that something along the lines of WW2's General Gouvernment with some bits lopped off of former Russia is about as much the Poles could expect

Scarecrow · May 1, 2006

Peter Cowan said:
Most of Galicia was Austro-Hungarian since one or other of the Polish partitions. The Russians captured Lemberg (L'vov or L'Viv) in 1914 and besieged Przemsyl (capturing it in March 1915).

I suppose one could argue that as it was retaken mostly by the Germans after Austro-Hungarian attacks failed, they might have some say in its disposition but making an ally surrender its own territory (as opposed to giving up conquests) is hardly politic. Then again a victorious Kaiser's Germany might be arrogant enough to do that.
I'd say that something along the lines of WW2's General Gouvernment with some bits lopped off of former Russia is about as much the Poles could expect

well there were plans by the CP to give Galicia to the new Polish state, i think with Kaiser Karl as king.

Peter Cowan · May 1, 2006

This might help

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kingdom_of_Galicia.png

Scarecrow · May 1, 2006

Peter Cowan said:
This might help

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kingdom_of_Galicia.png

thanks, but my Galicia is accurate. the pale grey lines are the OTL borders, so if you look at the one in Austria, its the OTL border of Romania. with the treaty border being close to the OTL border, its kinda hard to see any differnce, and the Galicia border may be strange.

Scarecrow · May 1, 2006

on another comment, what is to be done with Moninengro, Serbia and Albania? i hardly think that Austria could occupy them indefinetly...

Shadow Knight · May 1, 2006

Bulgaria should receive the Macedonian area of Serbia in addition to the rest of their gains.

If the CP were feeling generous they may give southern Albania to Greece (along with reinstalling the pro-German King). The rest may be broken up into smaller petty states ruled by German and Hungarian princes (Montenegro and rump Albania would be two states and Serbia could be split up into another two.).

Gustav Anderman · May 1, 2006

MerryPrankster said:
If the CP wins at a very late date, Austria might well disintegrate. Germany might grab the German-speaking lands and Hungary

Well that would be a very interessting Reichstag in 1919

How many differnt languages would have been there?

BTW why is crimera german?

Michael B · May 1, 2006

Scarecrow said:
Egypt...I wasnt to sure, but i guess it can be left British, perhaps with concesions elseware, such as sub-Saharan africa, and perhaps a de-militerized Canal zone or something.

Britain was almost paranoid about the security of the Suez Canal which is one reason why it occupied Palestine after the War. Given that France is in chaos, she would certainly allow Germany to cut a slice or two from French Africa if that guaranteed her own control of Egypt.

MerryPrankster · May 1, 2006

Gustav Anderman said:
Well that would be a very interessting Reichstag in 1919
How many differnt languages would have been there?

Hungary wouldn't be part of this Germany. The German-speaking territories would go to the German Empire, while Hungary would inherit the rest.

Sorry if I wasn't more clear.

It would still be an interesting Reichstag--with the inclusion of Austria, the Catholic and Socialist vote would skyrocket. It'd be a Trojan horse to neuter Prussian militarism for all time.

Glen · May 1, 2006

Yep. Britain should keep Egypt. Ottomans are in no position to bargain for that.

Gallicia was given by AH to the new Poland, or planned to, anyway.

Probably no material losses for the UK, just prestige and no longer being able to lord it over everyone else. Morroco to Germany, definitely. AL stays in Germany.

Those areas on the Black Sea were occupied by the Germans, but I doubt they'd stay there.

Also, I don't know if Romania REALLY would last in even that emaciated state in a true CP victory. I could be wrong, though.

Thande · May 1, 2006

Mucho cool map, Scarecrow. I have to agree with Glen, though - I always expected Austria-Hungary to annex all of Romania and try to integrate it (not necessarily successfully in the long run, but...)

Gustav Anderman · May 1, 2006

MerryPrankster said:
Hungary wouldn't be part of this Germany. The German-speaking territories would go to the German Empire, while Hungary would inherit the rest.

Sorry if I wasn't more clear.

It would still be an interesting Reichstag--with the inclusion of Austria, the Catholic and Socialist vote would skyrocket. It'd be a Trojan horse to neuter Prussian militarism for all time.

Okay i was only wondering because everybody here wants to give belguim and or sometimes even more parts of france to germany.

MerryPrankster · May 1, 2006

Glen said:
Also, I don't know if Romania REALLY would last in even that emaciated state in a true CP victory. I could be wrong, though.

The CP gave Romania carte blanche to take Bessarabia if they could keep it.