Plausibility Check : US let Saddam have Kuwait?

Title said that, probably with some under the table agreement with Saddam to start establish a friendly relations with Israel, or actually letting Saddam to outright being the regional boss in middle east in exchange of smiting the Iranians...

And perhaps reluctance to militarily commit for the others' sake, after Vietnam...

So?
 

U.S David

Banned
There is a better chance of a flying pig getting hit by a snowball in Hell, thrown by Ted Cruz while singing praise to Lenin.

Iraq had the 4th largest army on Earth, and there would be nothing stopping him from invading and taking Saudi Arabia.

This, and with the oil from Iraq and Kuwait, would give him half of the world's oil, and would destroy the global economy. With this power, he could black mail other nations like Europe and Japan who don't have oil reserves of their own.

It would be easy for Saddam to get nukes.

Forget all of this for a second, do you really think Israel would allow this? This could start a war that engulfs the entire middle east. This alone is reason to intervine.

And why not? When will be the next time when both houses of congress, public opinion, the UN, and world opinion all agreed to start a war? Even the dying Soviet Union was okay with this, and voted the same as the US for the first time. If I was Bush, I would ask ''why not?"
 
There is a better chance of a flying pig getting hit by a snowball in Hell, thrown by Ted Cruz while singing praise to Lenin.

Iraq had the 4th largest army on Earth, and there would be nothing stopping him from invading and taking Saudi Arabia.

This, and with the oil from Iraq and Kuwait, would give him half of the world's oil, and would destroy the global economy. With this power, he could black mail other nations like Europe and Japan who don't have oil reserves of their own.

It would be easy for Saddam to get nukes.

Forget all of this for a second, do you really think Israel would allow this? This could start a war that engulfs the entire middle east. This alone is reason to intervine.

And why not? When will be the next time when both houses of congress, public opinion, the UN, and world opinion all agreed to start a war? Even the dying Soviet Union was okay with this, and voted the same as the US for the first time. If I was Bush, I would ask ''why not?"

Well, you've convinced me!
 
Interesting topic.

It also touches on a few real facts, omne of them being the 'horror' one: Did US hint that Iraq could have Kuwait?

It is probably also not only US involved in this. The key to this is probably also what the other Arab nations want.

Saudi paid Saddam some $50 billion (if I remember correctly) just to go fight Iran (Persians) and to keep him from having any designs on Saudi.

Kuwait also gave him money to go away.

Of course a lot of Arab nations saw Iraq as the guardian of Arab unity against the non-arabs - Iran.

Where it really went wrong was (simplified) when Kuwait told Saddam that the billions were actually a loan and if Saddman would kindly just pay it back.

On top of, the oil output got increased also on the behest of Kuwait; hence the Iraq income from oil dipped.

None of it was what Saddamn liked. Being squeezed with loan payments and reuced income after he (rightly?) saw himself as the Arab savior was a bit strong.

Shooting your banker when the banker wants you to start repayment is not a generally approved practice.

In some ways, Kuwait were not particular smart, but it was only later that US got into this.

Another good question is:

When did the tide turn in the US attitude towards Saddam?

Ivan
 
When did the tide turn in the US attitude towards Saddam?
In February 1979 - towards Saddam, just not by very much, and not for very long. It was Imperial Iran that was the US's client state, while Saddam bought his airforce from Mikoyan & Gurevich. While Khomeini put paid to the former relationship, Saddam was still a crazy mother who wanted to become Caliph over all the oil and obtain WMDs with which to do it. That doesn't help your standing with the US.

Thus the US did not intervene in the 1981 Osirak strike, and provided Keyhole imagery in the run-up to it. US criticism of Israel thereafter was sound and fury, signifying nothing.

The US arranged the sale of antitank missiles to Iran in 1985-6, during the middle of the Iran-Iraq War, as part of the Iran-Contra brilliance.

The Kuwaitis probably shouldn't have loaned him as much money as they did*, but they were (rightly) concerned at the prospect of Iranian success meaning that some quite forthright Shias from the Revolutionary Guards would be paying a visit to Kuwait City to do some urban renewal shortly thereafter, probably accompanied by the public execution of the entire Kuwaiti royal family just to be sure.

*If you owe the bank ten thousand dollars, you're in trouble. If you owe the bank ten million dollars, the bank's in trouble.
 
Well the British took Kuwait from Iraq in the first place, who knows, maybe the US would let them have it back.
 
Well the British took Kuwait from Iraq in the first place, who knows, maybe the US would let them have it back.

Maybe some cynical us politician agreed for him to keep the oil stable, and get free hands in middle east as long as he stay secular? And sign peace treaty and friendship with Israel?

Perhaps some "Religious Revolution" in Arab Saudi done by Osama earlier than 1992? Causing US to look at Saddam as the lesser evil?
 
Maybe some cynical us politician agreed for him to keep the oil stable, and get free hands in middle east as long as he stay secular? And sign peace treaty and friendship with Israel?

Perhaps some "Religious Revolution" in Arab Saudi done by Osama earlier than 1992? Causing US to look at Saddam as the lesser evil?

Saddam was bat fuck nuts and you need about two conversations with the man to realise this. He by this point would have invaded two sovereign nations and killed tens of thousands of his own people with chemical weapons while his sons were famous for being sociopathic animals.

Nobody with half a brain would trust him as far as they could spit him. Giving this man half the world's oil would be utter insanity. The US deals with shady people all the time, many are outright monsters but they tend to be useful monsters. Greater Iraq serves no US interests and puts many under existential threat.
 
Well the British took Kuwait from Iraq in the first place, who knows, maybe the US would let them have it back.

No, they did'nt; when Britain established the Protectorate over Kuwait there was no Iraq, the territory that forms the modern country was part of the Ottoman Empire, additionally, as noted above, Kuwait was not a colony, it was a Protectorate, meaning it was still nominally an independent state, and had been for centuries (not always under the same form, but still existent).
 
Saddam might not have beebn totally 'together' but:

(Wiki):
""
..Within just a few years, Iraq was providing social services that were unprecedented among Middle Eastern countries....

Iraq created one of the most modernized public-health systems in the Middle East, earning Saddam an award from the UNESCO.

...[the Iran-Iraq war]
These chemical weapons were developed by Iraq from materials and technology supplied primarily by West German companies as well as [55] the Reagan administration of the United States which also supplied Iraq with "satellite photos showing Iranian deployments"[56] and advised Hussein to bomb civilian targets in Tehran and other Iranian cities.[57] In a US bid to open full diplomatic relations with Iraq, the country was removed from the US list of State Sponsors of Terrorism.

""""

So, not all regarded Saddam as nuts.

The UK government also sanctioned the Matrix group to sell to Iraq, so Saddam was a player.

Let us get back to the OP:

Why did Saddam read it wrongly? Was US too unclear?

Also take into account that Saddamn never saw US as an enemy. His main enemy was Iran.

Maybe it was rather obvious (to Saddam) that US would be OK and that his Arab naeigbors would either be OK or too intimidated.

Just another spin on it

Ivan
 
Saddam's hell hole Iraq was a place where women went to university to become engineers. America's freed Iraq is a place where women became foundation material when they are buried under rubble.

I have read an interesting story about Kuwait invasion: Saddam did inform the american ambassador about his plans to invade Kuwait. Saddam then waited for a few days and, since no halt was coming from the US, thought that he had been silently greenlighted. What had really happened? That retarted lady (the ambassador) simply had not passed the information to the Department of the State :eek:.
 
My scenario would be this:

In 1980, Iraq mass troops on the Iranian border in the south, but instead of starting the Iran-Iraq War he surprise the world and roll into Kuwait instead. Kuwait is overrun in a couple of days, and Saddam declares Kuwait under his protection from the Iranian Revolution. The rationale for this conquest is a correct reading that Iran is too strong for Iraq to take on, despite the chaos brought on by the revolution. Rather Saddam decided Kuwait was the low hanging fruit whose wealth he could use to build up his military while he waits for Iran to descend further into the abyss.

I asked a group of American veterans from this era some years back and more than a few believed Saddam could've gotten away with it. For one thing though Iraqi forces weren't nearly as strong as they were a decade later, US forces were relatively even weaker after being hollowed out by Vietnam. Second US would have much more difficulty pulling forces out of Europe at the height of the Cold War. In 1991 they redeployed the cream of the USAF in Europe, this was not an option in 1980. Finally many expressed doubts that the Carter administration had the political will to start a war in the final months of his term. He may put off the issue until after the election, and after his defeat would have even more incentive to leave the decision for Reagan. By the time Reagan is sworn in the world may have gotten used to Iraq running Kuwait, especially if Saddam behaved himself.
 
Last edited:
Why would he invade Kuwait at that point in time?

He had the backing of the Arab world as they all feared Iran (Persia again).

Iran had named him the prime enemy and whatever Saddam tried to do to convince Iran that he was a good Muslim, it did not work.

Whether Iran would have taken on Iraq in 1980 if nothing else had happened is a good question.

Maybe US would have supported Saddam insofar as Iran would be the aggressor?

We also need to look at the bigger picture of 1980.

Afghanistan: Newly invaded by USSR,

Ivan
 
I have read an interesting story about Kuwait invasion: Saddam did inform the american ambassador about his plans to invade Kuwait. Saddam then waited for a few days and, since no halt was coming from the US, thought that he had been silently greenlighted. What had really happened? That retarted lady (the ambassador) simply had not passed the information to the Department of the State :eek:.

No, she gave a diplomatic answer that crazy Saddam took as a go ahead. And you do not need to insult both her and use a slur against the handicapped.
 
I have read an interesting story about Kuwait invasion: Saddam did inform the american ambassador about his plans to invade Kuwait. Saddam then waited for a few days and, since no halt was coming from the US, thought that he had been silently greenlighted. What had really happened? That retarted lady (the ambassador) simply had not passed the information to the Department of the State :eek:.

I read that too. Basically the entire invasion and war could have been averted if someone passed on the information and the secretary of state politely telling Saddam "No."

While Saddam was a ruthless tyrant I think prior to the first gulf war he was rational and knew not to bite the hand that feeds him. Only afterwards did the siege mentality set in and he really started going off the deep end. Basically like what happens to every dictator after they hold on to power for too long they start to go bonkers.
 
The decision to counterinvade came when Bush was convinced that Saudi Arabia was threatened. Like Truman in Korea, Bush didn't see the annexation of Kuwait as important as the message acquiescence would send to the Saudis. Had Saddam made the integrity of KSA more clear, it's entirely possible that Bush doesn't see shadows of Munich and the affair becomes forgotten by the world shortly thereafter. Had Iraq captured the royal family, there wouldn't be an extremely well-oiled (literally) and vocal opposition. That may be enough. The Sauds would probably rather see Iraqi Kuwait than a Republican Kuwait (especially a democracy!)
 
Saddam was bat fuck nuts and you need about two conversations with the man to realise this.

Did you have two conversations with the man? If so, please share, I think that would be fascinating.

Personally, I'd avoid psychiatric diagnosis. My own view of the man is that he was a person of spectacularly bad judgement.

He seems to have been inspired by and patterned himself after Stalin, but Stalin himself had a history of massively bad judgement which Saddam seems to have overlooked.

The qualities in Stalin that he chose to emulate were his perceptions of strength, ruthlessness and perserverance. His ability to wield absolute power at home by terrorizing his enemies and rivals on an individual level, and crippling without apparent consequence internal forces such as religious or nationalist movements or communities. He tried to apply these lessons to Iraq, and created a brutal state apparatus which maintained him in power.

But beyond that, Stalin was a buffoon and blunderer. He got hornswoggled by Hitler, which is appalling. His experiences with China and North Korea were epic blunders. His strategic, military and security decisions hurt the USSR as much as it helped. Saddam overlooked that. And he overlooked Stalin's modern tarnished legacy.

And that's a shame, because had he had a clearer eye on his hero, it might have warned him of the consequences of brutality and bad judgement. WWII was not Stalin's shining moment of strength and glory, it was under Stalin a meat grinder where he inched his way to victory, losing a major segment of the Soviet population and half wrecking the country. A generation later, the USSR still had not fully recovered from the War. And yet, with that in front of him, Saddam embraced a reckless war with Iran. Based on.... what? Assurances of support from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the Gulf states? Some notion of American backing? And yet, during this war, he pretty much failed to consolidate that support, so vague and ephemeral that only self delusion could have persuaded him it was ever reliable.

He had this vision of a quick and easy win over Iran, but seems to have made no real calculations of risk, or assessment as to what would happen if things went wrong. It was a chain reaction, each bad decision simply lead to the next bad decision, a dance of blunders and missteps at every point, digging himself and his country in deeper.

A truly crazy Saddam would have amounted to nothing. People don't follow crazy people. No matter how brutal the rule, genuine wackiness is not a long term strategy for survival.

The appears to have had some affinity for office and interpersonal politics, he was a very competent knife fighter in the Baathist party, and sound enough to kiss the right asses at the right time. In power, he had enough cunning and enough mastery of local politics, enough nastiness, to maintain himself.

But he completely failed to grasp the realities of the larger world around him in any meaningful way. He read his own meaning into April Glaispie's words, was outmaneuvered by the corrupt inbreds of the Kuwaiti royal family (and didn't that tell us all we needed to know). His military assessments were abysmal, his grasp of economics, international relations and politics, etc. were worse.

History will record him as a clown and a blunderer, though one dipped in red.

A Smart Saddam? That would have been truly dangerous. A smart Saddam could well have taken Kuwait, and bought American support into the bargain. And he could well have sewn up the Persian Gulf.
 
No, she gave a diplomatic answer that crazy Saddam took as a go ahead. And you do not need to insult both her and use a slur against the handicapped.

I disagree. Glaispie's handling the matter was world class incompetence. Insult her? The woman disqualified herself from a position as school crossing guard, much less a diplomat in one of the most sensitive areas of the world.
 
Saddam's best bet would have been to avoid war and pilot his country directly into the American orbit, following the Afghan invasion and Iranian revolution. The United States was running scared back then.

Best bet would have been immediately following the Reagan inauguration. Reagan was a sentimental buffoon, his henchmen were in love with the notion of themselves as masters of the great game. They'd have loved to have landed a major Arab client state - that would have been one over on the Russians AND the Democrats. Détente with Israel would have paid big benefits, and if he'd played it right, he could still have paid enough lip service to the Palestinian cause.

After that, all he would have had to do was carefully co-opt American intelligence to give himself a free hand, stoke up a cold war with Iran, present himself as the defender of the Persian Gulf and sit back and covertly destabilize Kuwait. It wouldn't have been hard. It's a freaking feudal monarchy with a giant population of guest workers.

Hell, by 1982 the United States was turning a blind eye to third world invasions all over the place - remember Israel going into Lebanon? Syria going into Lebanon? Argentina going into the Falklands? Reagan talked a terrific game, but mostly he stayed home and let things play out.

Destabilize and invade Kuwait in the 1980's with the right narrative. Hell, Reagan would have gone to Baghdad to award Saddam a medal of freedom. Hell, if he'd played his cards right, he could have bullied his way into reducing the rest of the Persian Gulf states to virtual protectorates, taken over Syria, had his atom bomb and his space gun too, with no real opposition from America.

Like I said, a Smart Saddam would have been bad news.
 
Top