Italy is a Major Power in WW2

trajen777

Banned
Ok here’s a major stretch BUT lets say there is an Italian Man stein / Guderian etc operating as chief of staff in Italy. They use there influence to outsource key weapons

  • Build a smaller but motorized Military. Focused on a Med Tank for like the Pz 4 with a long 75 mm by having less infantry they build 15 Pz divisions – Impressed by German occ of Austria and follow there doctrines
  • Buy the He airplane as a fighter that was turned down by the Germans for the ME109
  • Buy the P51 – which was offered for sale to many countries
  • Upgrade their sub force (it was 75 when the war started but very poorly built) with Dutch snorkel and Japanese torp ( best )
  • Focus on building 4 carriers vs the battleship fleet

So:


  • 1940 - Send 7 pz divisions into Egypt – defeat the Brits there as well as a quick win in Sudan
  • Invade up through Pal and SA as well as Iraq in 40 – 41. AS victories mount the It people support the war more
  • Subs and Air Power (land based and AC based force Brits from Med)
  • German lack of stress on there forces make them more efficient in Rus invasion
  • Forces needed in Greece and Youg as well as Africa are give to Army Gp North with an extra two corps they cut off Russian army gp north and seize Leningrad ( actually came very close to happening except for undue caution from Manstein (of all people) which allowed for a controlled Russian withdrawal
  • Then::::::::::::::::::::
 
Italy was in no economic shape to do the things you suggest. Four aircraft carriers was simply out of the question. Besides, nobody at the time you are talking about thought the Med would be a place where carriers would be of any substantial use.

The Italian airforce was equipped with great planes in the thirties and their pilots were among the best in the world at winning air races and competitions. Why would they buy another country's planes?

I am not sure the Italian army would want to be motorized to the extent you envisage. Oil supplies for one would be a problem. Also, the areas (apart from the north Africian desert) where Mussolini's ambitions lay, like Yugoslavia and Albania and Greece, were mountainous and had very poor roads or even just goat tracks.
 
I think Italy could have done better, but it was very much dependant on the Fascist system. Mussolini like Hitler wanted lots of light armour to show off. The FIAT factory didn't like foreign competion so improvement was slowed down. Look up www.tankhistory.com. So no more armour or perhaps just a little more, but it would need good networking in the Fascist system.
Aircraft - as MarkA. They actually made very good aircraft, they weren't just not up to date at the outbreak of war, but later managed rather well regarding fighter production.
Naval. In the '30ties Italy was regarded as the builder of warships. They actually had a number of CVs laid down, but didn't finish them. Have a look at www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/.
IMHO it was more a matter of will and resolve that was needed. The hardware was there or could be produced. Actually the Italians on the eve of invasion of Egypt had a new armour doctrine, but didn't use it. Their deployment and use of forces spell it out.
 
The med probally wasn't a good place for carriers- not many places in there out of range of the shore.
 

The Sandman

Banned
With Italian aircraft: didn't they have problems getting engines? I remember hearing that that was a problem with what were otherwise excellent designs.

If you want a stronger Italy, have them find the Libyan oil in the early 1930s. That should give their economy a boost. Also, have Italy not join the Axis in 1940; just have them grab valuable bits (Corsica, Tunisia, Nice, Provence) off of Vichy, like how the Japanese seized French Indochina. At this point, both sides would probably be courting Italy; the Germans need more cannon fodder and the British need somewhere to attack Germany from. Have Italy play them against each other for as long as possible in order to finish building up a decent economy and military, and then Italy would join whatever side offers the most lucrative bribes.
 
They did use license build Daimler-Benz engines for the Macchi C.202 Folgore fighter and Reggiane Re 2001 and 2005 fighters. And couldn't build enough engines.
 
Leej said:
The med probally wasn't a good place for carriers- not many places in there out of range of the shore.

I have a book in my collection which consists of reprints of SIGNAL, the German wartime propaganda magazine. One of the things I remember seeing there was a slick ad trumpeting why Italy didn't need aircraft carriers...basically it said Italy WAS an aircraft carrier by virtue of it's geographic position in the Mediterranean. It had a really cool picture of Italy with an aircraft carrier flight deck on top of it with hundreds of planes taking off from it.

Say what you will about the Nazis, but Goebbels knew his stuff.
 

Gremlin

Banned
The best Strategy for Italy would have been to stay out of the war, Mussolini does a Franco and stays neutral with a strong Hitler bias

France falls, Italy acts to maintain peace in the Med by occuping Corsica and maybe Lebanon/Syria and a strip of Southern France (similar to Stalin and Poland).

The British have to maintain a presence in the Med (not fully trusting Musso) but the forces in the region are stripped to replace losses in other theatres, Britian is unable to blockade the Reich as supplies still flow through Spain and Italy.

Hitler tries to diplomatically secure his Balkan Flank pre-barbarossa and as in OTL ends up invading Yugoslavia - Mussolini gets Trieste (Stalin/Poland again)

Italian volunteers similar to the Azul division (spain) assist in barbarossa, if the allies still win out from this point then Italy may be getting a load of scientists and blueprints from Germany as the third Reich collapses and notable germans attempt to avoid allied incarcaration, factor in an italian industry and society reletivly unsratched by war and the discovery of oil in Libya and things look good for the Italians.
 
Gremlin said:
The best Strategy for Italy would have been to stay out of the war, Mussolini does a Franco and stays neutral with a strong Hitler bias

France falls, Italy acts to maintain peace in the Med by occuping Corsica and maybe Lebanon/Syria and a strip of Southern France (similar to Stalin and Poland).

The British have to maintain a presence in the Med (not fully trusting Musso) but the forces in the region are stripped to replace losses in other theatres, Britian is unable to blockade the Reich as supplies still flow through Spain and Italy.

Hitler tries to diplomatically secure his Balkan Flank pre-barbarossa and as in OTL ends up invading Yugoslavia - Mussolini gets Trieste (Stalin/Poland again)

Italian volunteers similar to the Azul division (spain) assist in barbarossa, if the allies still win out from this point then Italy may be getting a load of scientists and blueprints from Germany as the third Reich collapses and notable germans attempt to avoid allied incarcaration, factor in an italian industry and society reletivly unsratched by war and the discovery of oil in Libya and things look good for the Italians.

I don't think the British would allow the Italians to act in this fashion. It would be letting Hitler get a neutral springboard into the Middle East to support other Rashid Ali's. As the US reacted when the Japanese occupied French Indochina, the Brits will if Musso enters Vichy areas. On the other hand the job will be a lot easier fighting Itais in Syria rather than French.
 

Gremlin

Banned
arctic warrior said:
I don't think the British would allow the Italians to act in this fashion. It would be letting Hitler get a neutral springboard into the Middle East to support other Rashid Ali's. As the US reacted when the Japanese occupied French Indochina, the Brits will if Musso enters Vichy areas. On the other hand the job will be a lot easier fighting Itais in Syria rather than French.

The British didn't react a whole lot to Indochina although it had serious implications for Hong Kong and Singapore and I don't recall HM government declaring war on uncle Joe when he seized a chunk of their allie Poland?

I'll concede the fact that taking Syria/Lebanon would be beyond Italy without Vichy compliance.
 
Gremlin said:
The British didn't react a whole lot to Indochina although it had serious implications for Hong Kong and Singapore and I don't recall HM government declaring war on uncle Joe when he seized a chunk of their allie Poland?

I'll concede the fact that taking Syria/Lebanon would be beyond Italy without Vichy compliance.

Well they didn't have the strenght in the Far East to counter the Japanese and uncle Joe, You know were to be countered in Finland. Being tough on Italy was quite another matter.
 
The biggest problem of Italy was their comparably small industrial base. They simple wouldn't have been able to compete with Britain, Germany, France, or Russia, not to mention the US, in terms of military hardware production.

Expanding into the few blank (non-colonized) spots on the map was a possible way out of this - but cost the Italians apparently more than it gave them, at least in the few years up to wwii.

The Balcans could have given Italy quite a boost - but that effort was a failure too, so the Germans got most of that area.

I suppose the only possibility for Italy to solve her problems would be to have *really* big advances in terms of using ceramics and other modern materials to build amor, composite materials, and the likes. That would be pretty unlikely, but not the first time such "sudden advances" happen.

Also, they'd need a person like Speer rationalising their economy and increasing capacity at astonishing rates.

With both coming together, I could see the mass production of a tank comparable to the t-34 but technologically slightly superior, the mass production of subs, a line of small carriers allowing Italy to project her power into the Atlantic and Indian Ocean, and so on.

Now comes the lack of a Manstein-, Zhukov-, or Guderian-like General...
 
JEDCJT said:
Italy was a joke during World War II. End of story.
Italy was a joke with 440,000 dead, of which some 330,000 were conscript soldiers. And if most divisions ran away (too clever to waste their lives for an unpopular war), some others - notably the Folgore paras at el Alamein, the Giovani Fascisti at Bir el Gobi, the colonial troops at Cheren in Eritrea and most of all the Alpini in the Don bend fighting withdrawal wrote pages of desperate valour. Don't forget them - they fought literally with stones and sticks against tigers and elephants armed to the teeth.
 

trajen777

Banned
ROMMEL: “The Italian soldier is disciplined, sober, an excellent worker and an example to the Germans in preparing dug-in positions. If attacked he reacts well. He lacks, however, a spirit of attack, and above all, proper training. Many operations did not succeed solely because of a lack of coordination between artillery and heavy arms fire and the advance of the infantry. The lack of adequate means of supply and service, and the insufficient number of motor vehicles and tanks, is such that during some movements Italian sections arrived at their posts incomplete. Lack of means of transport and service in Italian units is such that especially in the bigger units, they cannot be maintained as a reserve and one cannot count on their quick intervention.”

The truth is the Italians went to war with 2143 light tanks (worthless) 954 Med tanks and 147 h tanks. My belief is that if they had focused less on the number of troops and instead had focused on an elite strike force based upon

1. Alpine troops
2. Airborn
3. 7 PZ divisons
4. 25 Inf divisons

They could have been a significant factor in the war. This of course would have meant

1. Good leadership at the top of the military
2. Transfer the cost of 21 Inf to create the 7 Pz divisons at 150 tanks each or a 1050 good med tanks.
3. Good airforce ( they had 1450 milt aircraft )

If there Navy which had the following in 1940
At June, 10th, 1940 (at the very beginning of the war) the Regia Marina was composed by

trasparente.gif
◊ 6 battleships, two of them of modern 35,000 ton. type
◊ 7 cruisers of 10,000 ton.
◊ 14 light cruisers between 5.000 and 8.000 ton.
◊ 12 flotilla leader destroyers
◊ 28 modern destroyers
◊ 19 old model destroyers
◊ 69 torpedo boats
◊ 117 submarines of varied type and tonnage


Had instead focused on 3 Aircraft carriers instead of the 6 BB and better diving Uboats vs the slow dive Ital craft +++ the inactive use of the navy at the start of the war destroyed moral

Obviously it could not more be sent little units to slaughter, without no escort: consequently the 7 July 1940 great part of the Italian fleet takes the sea in order to escort a convoy of five steamboats directed to Bengasi. It seems an exaggerated deployment of forces, but the facts of the Espero had made the Italian Command prudent. Also the English fleet is in sea, the battle is unavoidable: it is the first sea battle between battleships in the Mediterranean and it will pass to History as the battle of Punta Stilo.
The battle, for itself not conclusive, put to knot the insufficient integration between Italian sea and air units, and, beyond that, the inefficiency of the Italian aircraft bombs, weighting only 250 Kg, against naval units (English sailors, after the first experiences, called them "cow shits").
Leaving to a side some smaller episode, the first months of war saw a substantial inactivity of the Italian naval forces, intentional by the orders from the High Command and the government: they were expecting the invasion of England and its defeat; to the contrary, in Navy headquarters there was much displeasing (they used the nickname of "Navy of non-intervention"), because it was wanted to search for a greater battle with English Navy, that, in that time, was numerically inferior.
The indolence of the Italian High Command made that English succeeded to carry out, the 29 August 1940, an operation, called "Hats", that previewed to send reinforces to the island of Malta and transfer some major surface units to the fleet of Alexandria. Now the force ratio was turned over.
 
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