WI/AHC: Bigger Argentina

Nanwe

How would it be possible for the Argentinian revolutionaries to, during and after their war of independence against Spain to keep the Banda Oriental and/or the Intendencia del Paraguay?

What would be the consequences of this? A less powerful Buenos Aires over the rest of the federation? The maintenance of the Directory or a parliamentary system?

A PoD before the 1830s would be preferable.
 

miguelrj

Nanwe said:
How would it be possible for the Argentinian revolutionaries to, during and after their war of independence against Spain to keep the Banda Oriental
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"Easy"

Nanwe said:
and/or the Intendencia del Paraguay?
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Harder.

You can also add Bolivia on a plausible Argentina wank, BTW.

Nanwe said:
What would be the consequences of this? A less powerful Buenos Aires over the rest of the federation? The maintenance of the Directory or a parliamentary system?

A PoD before the 1830s would be preferable.
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The recipe is simple: either the Federals or the Unitarians much squash their rivals. Preferably the former over the latter. Don't ask me how. :(

If an Argentina with Uruguay suffices all you need to do is destabilize Brazil (or simpy divert the attention of Portugal-Brazil) to avoid its presence in the Cisplatine...
 

Nanwe

miguelrj said:
"Easy"
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As a Spaniard, I fear I have 0 knowledge of how the Americas fared besides knowing a coupe of names of prominent libertadores, so how is it easy? The Liga Federals/de los Pueblos Libros imposes itself over the porteños?


miguelrj said:
Harder.

You can also add Bolivia on a plausible Argentina wank, BTW.
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Yeah, but I was thinking a more moderate thing. But do you (or anyone else), know how successful could Belgrano's expedition be? Or are there other possibilities?[/QUOTE]
 

miguelrj

Nanwe said:
As a Spaniard, I fear I have 0 knowledge of how the Americas fared besides knowing a coupe of names of prominent libertadores, so how is it easy? The Liga Federals/de los Pueblos Libros imposes itself over the porteños?




Yeah, but I was thinking a more moderate thing. But do you (or anyone else), know how successful could Belgrano's expedition be? Or are there other possibilities?
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My knowledge doesn't go much further, IDK much about the odds of Belgrano's expedition. But OTL's independence of Uruguay was purely the result of Portuguese and later Brazilian interference there. Butterfly that away and Uruguay's natural path leads to Argentina.

You can achieve that by avoiding the Portuguese invasion or one that drags and largely fails. Liga Federal vs. Porteños without Brazil on board is "just" an internal conflict of this larger Argentina.

pa_dutch said:
Might it be possible for a stronger Argentina to take Chile's share of Patagonia as well?
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Patagonia is up to whoever grabs it in the mid-19th century. If Chile doesn't, Argentina might.
 
juanml82

juanml82

Nanwe said:
As a Spaniard, I fear I have 0 knowledge of how the Americas fared besides knowing a coupe of names of prominent libertadores, so how is it easy? The Liga Federals/de los Pueblos Libros imposes itself over the porteños?
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Yep.
Paraguay is way harder. They will not want to be ruled from Buenos Aires and have the military strength to achieve it.
Bolivia is also possible: When San Martin's original plan for the invasion of Peru included a land offensive into Bolivia. The offensive didn't happen because the government of Buenos Aires didn't send any resources north. Put someone(s) else(s) in charge - which might tie up with keeping Uruguay as part of the country, and it would happen.
I'm not necessarily sure Bolivia's natural path guides it to Argentina, as it would be the case with a non alienated/victorious Uruguay, and years of Argentine armies making ill fated offensives while sacking and pillaging all over the place were unlikely to win hearts and minds. But it's still definitely possible. And, in a worse case scenario, it would at least include Bolivia's OTL southern provinces in Argentina.

Argentina can also keep the Malvinas - don't try to tax American whalers and fishers, which can't be enforced and the entire chain of events leading to the British takeover is averted. And if the UK wants a naval presence in the area, the Argentine government would have no problem with British ships regularly making port there, or even being based there, as long as the islands are still considered part of Argentina.

This can also clear more southern expansion. Probably not into the Antarctica peninsula, but the Southern Georgias, Southern Sandwich and Southern Orkney Islands can all be internationally recognized as part of Argentina if Britain doesn't have any reason to contest those claims. Not that they are useful for anything, though.
 

unprincipled peter

Donor
No invasion (1816) of Uruguay doesn't automatically keep U in Argentina. Artigas is causing major issues all over the region, which is why Buenos Aires encouraged Portugal/Brazil to invade in the first place. It could very well cause Argentina to splinter.

An Argentina wank requires Portuguese crown to stay in Portugal. You could add on a tack of sending a Spanish crown to the viceroyalty.

Having Napoleon trip and break his neck in Egypt allows you to rewrite history of the inevitable South American breakup any way you want. Working with the overall history line as we know it, though, makes it more difficult.
 

Armot

Nanwe said:
How would it be possible for the Argentinian revolutionaries to, during and after their war of independence against Spain to keep the Banda Oriental and/or the Intendencia del Paraguay?

What would be the consequences of this? A less powerful Buenos Aires over the rest of the federation? The maintenance of the Directory or a parliamentary system?

A PoD before the 1830s would be preferable.
Click to expand...

I think that a Constitutional Monarchy could give a chance to Argentina, for the sake of political stability. Of course, this includes a Parliamentarian system.
 

miguelrj

unprincipled peter said:
Artigas is causing major issues all over the region, which is why Buenos Aires encouraged Portugal/Brazil to invade in the first place. It could very well cause Argentina to splinter.
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The issues he's causing is advancing the federal cause against the Unitarians. I'd think it was more like "let's let these outsiders deal with our enemies" than a patriotic duty to keep the Plata integral...
 

unprincipled peter

Donor
miguel,
I read the situation as Artigas advancing a system of interdependent separate states with a very weak federal power controlling/moderating them. It was a pipe dream. there was no state apparatus. it was simply a bunch of warlords controlling their own fiefdom. IMO, if Artigas had held the day, you're looking at a whole lot of small nations instead of one big Argentina.

Absolutely, the centralists betrayed him for their own ends. Ultimately, I think it worked out well for the country even if the initial intentions were not pure.
 
juanml82

juanml82

unprincipled peter said:
miguel,
I read the situation as Artigas advancing a system of interdependent separate states with a very weak federal power controlling/moderating them. It was a pipe dream. there was no state apparatus. it was simply a bunch of warlords controlling their own fiefdom. IMO, if Artigas had held the day, you're looking at a whole lot of small nations instead of one big Argentina.

Absolutely, the centralists betrayed him for their own ends. Ultimately, I think it worked out well for the country even if the initial intentions were not pure.
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I don't know. What you describe pretty much resembles Argentina between 1820 and 1852, and the country didn't balkanize. Of course, it couldn't last forever either. A victorious Artigas TL could lead to decades of a very loose country which slowly (and at times tragically) moves towards more centralization.
The issue how, or if, such a thing develops. By 1850, Argentine warlords had united behind Urquiza because it was the only chance they stood against Buenos Aires. By 1862, most, including Urquiza, realized they didn't stood a chance anyways and surrendered with barely a fight, as a centralized, yet federal, system consolidated.
In an Artigas victorious TL, we have two great centers of power: one in Buenos Aires and another one in Uruguay. So, even if all the other warlords (or most of them) join, what are they joining for?
 
Xenophonte

Xenophonte

Artigas

He was an ideologue influenced by the American Revolution. Esentially by Thomas Paine and Rousseau.His papers were inspired by them and in the federal constitucion of 1787.His way of life and ideals could be compares to those of Andrew Jackson. The thought that it was no more than a bloody warlord is a product of the black legend created by Sarmiento and the elites of Buenos Aires.the politics model was the Federal constitution of the United Estates (1787).Finally is not correct to speak of Argentina as there existed neither in law nor as Nationality. http://Books.google.com.uy/Books?id=qua56GOWponEC&Ipg=f [http://books.google.com.uy/books?id=WmPZWDw8bhEC&lpg=PA87&dq=jose%20artigas&pg=PA87#v=onepage&q=jose%20artigas&f=false/URL].books.
 
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unprincipled peter

Donor
I don't think Artigas was himself a bloody warlord. He was an idealist, trying to create a spanish USA. Where he was wrong is that that spanish america in no way, shape, or form resembled the conditions of English North America. There was little education, business, middle class, or political structure. North America had 13 colonies. Spanish America had 4 viceroyalties, and the one in question is splintering. The odds of it succeeding are slim. with a firmly entrenched Artigas, you end up with too much regional splintering, although, I can see that IF it somehow survives, ultimately some sort of unity can occur.
 
Xenophonte

Xenophonte

Artigas II

unprincipled peter said:
I don't think Artigas was himself a bloody warlord. He was an idealist, trying to create a spanish USA. Where he was wrong is that that spanish america in no way, shape, or form resembled the conditions of English North America. There was little education, business, middle class, or political structure. North America had 13 colonies. Spanish America had 4 viceroyalties, and the one in question is splintering. The odds of it succeeding are slim. with a firmly entrenched Artigas, you end up with too much regional splintering, although, I can see that IF it somehow survives, ultimately some sort of unity can occur.[/QUOTE

Again the inferiority complex of the Hispanic. 1) Artigas was aware of the problems. Their famous Instructions XIII, his equally famous land regulations (legitimized and he distributed land, seeds, farming implements, etc. regardless of race or social status) .2) The trade agreement with Great Britain, signed with the commander of the British naval station! (was disavowed by the British government to learn, did not recognize the new government in the Spanish colonies. because the British commander would take that initiative?. He was strongly influenced by Felix de Azara strongly . and do not forget his youth living off the land as gauchos (being one more of them), earning their respect and loyalty was what became leader. Finally the 13 colonies had to fight hard to transform in and feel part a nation and not their home state.

ARTIGAS Y LA EMANCIPACIÓN DE URUGUAY in Spanish.
assets.cambridge.org/97805210/86936/.../9780521086936_excerpt. pdf
Cambridge University Press. 978-0-521-08693-6 - Artigas and the Emancipation of Uruguay . John Street . In English. http://www.cambridge.org/uy/academi...st/artigas-and-emancipation-uruguay?format=PB


Spanish :
En Compañía de don Félix de Azara - La Biblioteca Artiguista
www.artigas.org.uy> ARTIGAS
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ARTIGAS EN SU JUVENTUD en Compañía de don Félix de Azara . El Espiritu d

Félix de Azara - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre
en.wikipedia.org / wiki / Félix_de_Azara
Félix Manuel de Azara (18 May 1746- 20 October 1821)
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