With a POD before, during or after 1912, have China divided into 2 entities: one a republican state, the other a monarchist.
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AHC: Divide China into two
- Thread starter Tredecimus
- Start date
Not that kind of division, but rather that one similar to Korea (monarchist North and republican South).
Bonus if the rise of Mao or Chiang is prevented, along with the Warlord Era.
Bonus if the rise of Mao or Chiang is prevented, along with the Warlord Era.
CthulhuFhtagn
Banned
Scenario #1: North China is Best China
PoD is that the USSR doesn't help the PRC. As a result, the PRC remains confined to Manchuria and northeastern China. The USSR invades western China, creating the Xinjiang/Uighurstan Socialist Republic. In 1950, you get a Korean War analogue, with the US against the USSR. It eventually ends up as a stalemate. So, for the rest of the Cold War, you have the following division:
Blue= US allies
Red= Godless commies
Later, North China decides to abandon communism entirely and becomes a theocratic monarchy, with "Dear Leader" Mao Zedong as eternal emperor against the capitalist Republic of China.
Scenario #2: "Da, Long Live Glorious Qing Motherland"
PoD is Russia doing something that allows it to win the Russo-Japanese War, gaining control over Manchuria. When the Qing Dynasty collapses, the Russians protect the Qing ancestral homeland in Manchuria. Later on, after the crushing defeat of the Austro-German alliance at the hands of the Entente (which includes a more industrialized and stable Russia), China becomes part of the "Second Great Game" between Russia and the Anglo-Japanese alliance:
Green = Russian Empire
Red = Japanese Empire
Pink = British Empire
Yellow = Qing Dynasty (under Russian control)
Blue = Republic of China
PoD is that the USSR doesn't help the PRC. As a result, the PRC remains confined to Manchuria and northeastern China. The USSR invades western China, creating the Xinjiang/Uighurstan Socialist Republic. In 1950, you get a Korean War analogue, with the US against the USSR. It eventually ends up as a stalemate. So, for the rest of the Cold War, you have the following division:
Blue= US allies
Red= Godless commies
Later, North China decides to abandon communism entirely and becomes a theocratic monarchy, with "Dear Leader" Mao Zedong as eternal emperor against the capitalist Republic of China.
Scenario #2: "Da, Long Live Glorious Qing Motherland"
PoD is Russia doing something that allows it to win the Russo-Japanese War, gaining control over Manchuria. When the Qing Dynasty collapses, the Russians protect the Qing ancestral homeland in Manchuria. Later on, after the crushing defeat of the Austro-German alliance at the hands of the Entente (which includes a more industrialized and stable Russia), China becomes part of the "Second Great Game" between Russia and the Anglo-Japanese alliance:
Green = Russian Empire
Red = Japanese Empire
Pink = British Empire
Yellow = Qing Dynasty (under Russian control)
Blue = Republic of China
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After 1912? Almost impossible, unless we're calling Manchukuo "North China." Literally nobody had any use for a Chinese monarch except the Japanese, and not to establish a North China either.
Mind, if we decide North Korea is a monarchy, then a monarchist China is certainly a possibility, if Mao's children outlive him (honestly, probably one of the best things to happen to 20th century China was Mao Anqing eating an American bomb during the Korean War).
If there's going to be a stalemate, it probably has to happen before the Communists break out of Manchuria, otherwise, the Communists' inertia will probably take them to Guangdong and Fujian as OTL (breaking out of Manchuria gives the Communists access to the most populated areas of China, and their ability to mobilize the people far outweighs that of the KMT; once they've gotten past Beijing, the KMT really are finished). So basically, the best bet is a Communist Manchuria and KMT rest of China.
Soviet Xinjiang is also very unlikely, OTL, they did make one probe, but nothing came of it, and afterwards, nobody would take any further Soviet incursions into China particularly kindly.
Also, if the USSR hangs the Communists out to dry, they're also finished. They literally only survived because the Soviets handed Manchuria to them in a basket, along with all the Kwantung army's arms.
Mind, even so, in this event, the power disparity and existence of a land connection still makes it difficult for the KMT to not roll up the Communists, outside of the Soviets retaining significant "protection troops" in Manchuria, a la East Germany. Certainly, if the USSR collapses, I don't see independent Manchuria lasting very long.
Mind, if we decide North Korea is a monarchy, then a monarchist China is certainly a possibility, if Mao's children outlive him (honestly, probably one of the best things to happen to 20th century China was Mao Anqing eating an American bomb during the Korean War).
If there's going to be a stalemate, it probably has to happen before the Communists break out of Manchuria, otherwise, the Communists' inertia will probably take them to Guangdong and Fujian as OTL (breaking out of Manchuria gives the Communists access to the most populated areas of China, and their ability to mobilize the people far outweighs that of the KMT; once they've gotten past Beijing, the KMT really are finished). So basically, the best bet is a Communist Manchuria and KMT rest of China.
Soviet Xinjiang is also very unlikely, OTL, they did make one probe, but nothing came of it, and afterwards, nobody would take any further Soviet incursions into China particularly kindly.
Also, if the USSR hangs the Communists out to dry, they're also finished. They literally only survived because the Soviets handed Manchuria to them in a basket, along with all the Kwantung army's arms.
Mind, even so, in this event, the power disparity and existence of a land connection still makes it difficult for the KMT to not roll up the Communists, outside of the Soviets retaining significant "protection troops" in Manchuria, a la East Germany. Certainly, if the USSR collapses, I don't see independent Manchuria lasting very long.
Getting rid of the Soviet Union might help with the monarchist part, I think.
I expect the KMT would take Tibet; they already controlled Xinjiang.
During 1912: Qing special services took Yuan out of the picture, and the better part of the Beiyang army remained loyal to Qing, followed by another two years of military stalemate between the old Jin-Song border and the Yellow river. When the Great War broke out, the powers concerned tell them to be done with it and brokered a truce between the Qing and the KMT so that they can concentrate on Europe.
CthulhuFhtagn
Banned
Depends on where the border is. If we're talking about what is generally considered to be "Southern China" (south of the Qin-Huai line), then Nanjing is the obvious choice. It was the capital of ancient Chinese dynasties for centuries.
It was Mao Anying who died in Korea. As a matter of fact, one or two of Mao's kids did outlive him, but they weren't in any state to act as successors, and his progeny is considered something of an embarrassment to the CCP to this very day.
does a japanese empire with more chinese citizens than japanese ones count as a second china?
they do say that conquerors of china usually become china...
they do say that conquerors of china usually become china...
Right, I forgot, they're sort of political irrelevancies when they're not receiving honors they don't deserve.
Nevertheless, the fact that Mao Anying was the only capable successor meant that his untimely death nevertheless probably helped at least in some degree in preventing China going North Korea; even though he had remaining children, if they're unfit for rule (or in most cases, outright died early or disappeared), they might as well be dead so far as politics is concerned.
Nanjing by default, it's simply so prestigeous that its namesake is for being a capital (Nanjing = "Southern Capital", while Beijing is the northen counterpart), and Shanghai would be its port. Chongqing, while more central and defendable than Nanjing, isn't as good in terms of transtortation. Guangzhou is more geographically isolated from the rest of China, and there's arbitrary choices such as Wuchang and Changsha as they are in the center.