WI : Muslim Patron for Ottoman muslim subjects

IOTL, the shock created by times of troubles during the Napoleonic Wars revealed the fragility the centuries long stagnant Ottoman institution under Janissary dominance. After The Auspicious Incident, the empire was eventually allowed to begin reforming, but by then, the empire's subjects in general had become disillusioned over the the strength of the empire to protect and advance their interests. For the non muslims, the christians that is, they easily found patron in European powers to protect their interests through an intricate set of arrangements that eventually became known as capitulations. The muslims however, had no where to run, as by then there was no alternative muslim great power to rely to.

It's a weird idea I have, but what if there was one ? Of course, the only possibility I have in mind is a surviving and strong Mughal Empire, strong enough to be the muslim mirror to the Europeans. Assume liberal butterflies for the sake of question, how will this work ? Will it be Ottoman goverment itself subduing to the Mughals, either voluntarily or under Mughal pressure ? Or will it be downright mimicking the Christian arrangement, under a weird diplomatic situation between two Caliphal Empires ?

Also, how will this general situation come to be ? Fear over Russian central asia would be too soon in 19th century. But a Mughal Empire that's sufficiently navally strong and active might be interested in shorter trade route to Europe, and might jump immediately once something like Muhammad Ali or Napoleon invasion happen. Then, it can roll into Mughal assistance to fend off Russia and other Europeans, at which point they will be in position to encroach upon Ottoman sovereignty.

The Ottoman Muslims might have had Persia as a patron had that state not been converted so thoroughly to Shiite Islam under the Safavids. This, of course, requires a butterfly net, but it's probably your best option.

With Persia, I think the problem is deeper then religion. They kinda fared worse in reforming IOTL, indicating the institutional as well as the ecological disadvantages they had. If anything they will accompany Ottomans inside Mughal pocket.

Ridwan Asher said:

With Persia, I think the problem is deeper then religion. They kinda fared worse in reforming IOTL, indicating the institutional as well as the ecological disadvantages they had. If anything they will accompany Ottomans inside Mughal pocket.

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The Mughals are too far away and with too many other issues to be plausible.

Egypt, if they get strong enough and independance earlier.

Persia would have jumped it for sure if they were a centralized empire the way Russia was. If only she could have pulled it off then she is in. It also will make more identical situation with the christian counterpart. I dont know if Persia could have become an enlightened style centralized empire though. Shah Abbas would be too early. Who could have done it during 18th century ?

Wendell said:

The Mughals are too far away and with too many other issues to be plausible.

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Because England, France and Russia (at certain times) didn't have distance from the Empire or anything either. If ITTLs Mughals are cohesive enough I don't see how one Indian Ocean power cannot hold sway over another.

The Mughals work- however with a POD that early the fall of the Ottomans isn't all that straightforward either- both the Mughals and Ottomans have a common enemy in the Persians, after all, and you could see some sort of rejuvenation if they both conduct a joint war to squash Persia.

That being said, the Mughals did hold caliphal ambitions, and Akbar actually spent a lot of money trying to influence Mecca, through donation etc. But again, with a TL this early, you might even see the Mughals recognised as the rightful caliphs over the Ottomans anyways, so it'd be a lot easier for Ottoman Muslims to transition over to the Mughal Emperor as their patron... the fact that the Mughal Empire was itself a very big, multiethnic and diverse place would probably help too.

Persia will fit it better with European flock in this context, but in terms of potential power to achieve this, nothing bears the Mughals.

Badshah said:

The Mughals work- however with a POD that early the fall of the Ottomans isn't all that straightforward either- both the Mughals and Ottomans have a common enemy in the Persians, after all, and you could see some sort of rejuvenation if they both conduct a joint war to squash Persia.

That being said, the Mughals did hold caliphal ambitions, and Akbar actually spent a lot of money trying to influence Mecca, through donation etc. But again, with a TL this early, you might even see the Mughals recognised as the rightful caliphs over the Ottomans anyways, so it'd be a lot easier for Ottoman Muslims to transition over to the Mughal Emperor as their patron... the fact that the Mughal Empire was itself a very big, multiethnic and diverse place would probably help too.

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Yeah it does seems that Ottomans will likely trade Caliphal symbols for Mughal protection against Europeans. But I think for that much a price then Mughals would gave to shoo Europeans away, instead of simply being a muslim capitulatory bully. Good for Ottomans but not exactly what I am looking for.

A persistent refusal to relinquish Caliphate while still getting protection and loans will might just do it, though.

Ridwan Asher said:

Yeah it does seems that Ottomans will likely trade Caliphal symbols for Mughal protection against Europeans. But I think for that much a price then Mughals would gave to shoo Europeans away, instead of simply being a muslim capitulatory bully. Good for Ottomans but not exactly what I am looking for.

A persistent refusal to relinquish Caliphate while still getting protection and loans will might just do it, though.

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The Ottomans could rebrand themselves as a strong temporal power, with the Mughal Emperor acting as the de jure spiritual power?

In any case the Ottoman Emperor could get the opportunity to play the Indians and the Europeans against each other to try and take back full power over his subjects- A Cold War in Constantinople.

Ottoman Khedivate of Rumelia, vassal of The Caliph of Islam, The Badshah. There's your irony

I don't think they will relinquish Caliphacy without a fight. But I guess that's what they eventually have yo settle for.

The next question will be this : with a reliable patron to look up too, what will that do to the empire and its muslim population, exactly ? How will they answer muslim calls from Ottoman realms ? Will they intervene directly on hot spots of Christian trojan horsing like in Lebanon ? Or will they simply help them through aiding the Ottoman state ?

Lets bump this for now

Novak said:

Because England, France and Russia (at certain times) didn't have distance from the Empire or anything either. If ITTLs Mughals are cohesive enough I don't see how one Indian Ocean power cannot hold sway over another.

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Sea power was an important aspect of French and English influence in the wider world for centuries by 1850. Where's this great Mughal navy?

Wendell said:

Sea power was an important aspect of French and English influence in the wider world for centuries by 1850. Where's this great Mughal navy?

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The POD can be early enough for the Mughals to have that great navy- OTL Akbar tried to acquire Portuguese cannonry for his ships, but was rebuffed.

If the Mughals are able to establish good relations with other states, it is possible for them to build and maintain an awesome (in the classic sense) navy to patrol the Indian Ocean; beginning with playing off the Portuguese and the Dutch against each other, I'd wager.

Badshah said:

The POD can be early enough for the Mughals to have that great navy- OTL Akbar tried to acquire Portuguese cannonry for his ships, but was rebuffed.

If the Mughals are able to establish good relations with other states, it is possible for them to build and maintain an awesome (in the classic sense) navy to patrol the Indian Ocean; beginning with playing off the Portuguese and the Dutch against each other, I'd wager.

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A POD that earrly changes so much as to make the need for a patron rather less likely.

Wendell said:

A POD that earrly changes so much as to make the need for a patron rather less likely.

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I did mention that as my chief concern- but the possibility for a need for a patron could conceivably still materialise, though in a very different way.

Mulling it some more, I think Mysore under Tipu Sultan's successor's could make itself into a formidable Empire; Tipu had already been thinking about establishing European style trading factories in Basra and Rangoon, and he held the Ottoman sultan in high regard.

His descendants might mark themselves as trusted deputies of the Emperor, effectively becoming patrons for the Ottomans' Muslim subjects, but still keeping the Ottomans as nominal caliphs.

How would the Muslim Arabs of the Ottoman Empire react to a loss of Caliphate status? I read somewhere that their loyalty to the Ottoman state was shaped primarily by (pan-)Islamic loyalty to its Caliph, although that may have been an oversimplification.

Badshah said:

I did mention that as my chief concern- but the possibility for a need for a patron could conceivably still materialise, though in a very different way.

Mulling it some more, I think Mysore under Tipu Sultan's successor's could make itself into a formidable Empire; Tipu had already been thinking about establishing European style trading factories in Basra and Rangoon, and he held the Ottoman sultan in high regard.

His descendants might mark themselves as trusted deputies of the Emperor, effectively becoming patrons for the Ottomans' Muslim subjects, but still keeping the Ottomans as nominal caliphs.

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Still, butterflies.


I'm starting to think that achieving this requires keeping the Ottomans out of Africa, or losing Egypt sooner and more successfully, and not granting themselves the Caliphate.