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Old October 9th, 2006, 10:57 PM
Zarth Zarth is offline
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Denmark-Norway

how do you keep the Kingdom of Denmark and Norway united at least until 1900?
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Old October 9th, 2006, 10:58 PM
Nicole Nicole is offline
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Just change the Napoleonic Wars around and I could easily see Denmark-Norway last to 2006.
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Old October 9th, 2006, 11:00 PM
Zarth Zarth is offline
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Originally Posted by Imajin View Post
Just change the Napoleonic Wars around and I could easily see Denmark-Norway last to 2006.
what would you change in the nappy wars? what would the Denmark-Norway look like? would they keep iceland? greenland? would they gain any other colonies?
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Old October 9th, 2006, 11:05 PM
EvolvedSaurian EvolvedSaurian is offline
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Originally Posted by Zarth View Post
what would you change in the nappy wars? what would the Denmark-Norway look like? would they keep iceland? greenland? would they gain any other colonies?
Keep Russia from taking Finland from Sweden. Scandinavian BOP and all that...
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Old October 10th, 2006, 09:07 AM
Max Sinister Max Sinister is offline
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I could still imagine that the Norwegians will somewhen demand their independence. nationalism and everything. 1900 should work, however.
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Old October 10th, 2006, 02:32 PM
Fabilius Fabilius is offline
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Originally Posted by Zarth View Post
what would you change in the nappy wars? what would the Denmark-Norway look like? would they keep iceland? greenland? would they gain any other colonies?
This Denmark would be slightly more powerful, so maybe they´d do a little better in the colonial race. I still think they wouldn´t be able to take Thailand, but maybe they´d get a nice spot somewhere in Africa.

I think that this would delay Norwegian independence at the very least, for the Norwegian and Danish nobility were very intermarried and so the upper class of Norway would want to keep the Union, I think.

That makes things more difficult for Iceland, since one of the mainarguments for independence there was that Icelanders were in a union with Norway and not Denmark, and so when Norway went it´s way Iceland should have gained independence.

In the long run though Iceland´s independence would come along as nationalism did pop up here in the 19th century... Unless this ATL Denmark would be willing to fight against the Icelandic independence movement.

Alas a lot depends on how they deal with Norway...
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Old October 10th, 2006, 04:46 PM
Zarth Zarth is offline
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so whats the longest you could keep denmark, norway greenland and iceland all together? without actually having them to fight an independance movement in norway or iceland
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Old October 10th, 2006, 05:30 PM
Umbral Umbral is offline
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I think that this would delay Norwegian independence at the very least, for the Norwegian and Danish nobility were very intermarried and so the upper class of Norway would want to keep the Union, I think.
There was no Norwegian nobility. Not since the middle ages.

The Norwegian upper class were often Danes. Among the Norwegians, there was a strong current of nationalism at the time, which resulted in the looser terms of the union with Sweden, and eventually independence.

If Denmark keep Norway, it will either have to ruthlessly supress any independence movement, or gradually loosen the union. I could see it lasting as long as the union with Sweden did, but around the time that was dissolved, it would probably have left anyway.

If Denmark kept tightening its hold, eventually a bloody and successful uprising is a real possibility.
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Old October 10th, 2006, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Umbral View Post
There was no Norwegian nobility. Not since the middle ages.

The Norwegian upper class were often Danes. Among the Norwegians, there was a strong current of nationalism at the time, which resulted in the looser terms of the union with Sweden, and eventually independence.
Correct

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If Denmark keep Norway, it will either have to ruthlessly supress any independence movement, or gradually loosen the union. I could see it lasting as long as the union with Sweden did, but around the time that was dissolved, it would probably have left anyway.

If Denmark kept tightening its hold, eventually a bloody and successful uprising is a real possibility.
Disagree

A different Napoleonic war with D-N on the winning side could very well see the union last. D and N had mutch mutch more in common with each other than N and Sweden
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Old October 10th, 2006, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Zarth View Post
how do you keep the Kingdom of Denmark and Norway united at least until 1900?
Either a lasting Kalmar Union or a different Napoleonic war
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Old October 10th, 2006, 05:48 PM
Max Sinister Max Sinister is offline
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Oh? What happened to the native Norwegian nobles? Killed by Black Death, Danes / Swedes, or what?
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Old October 10th, 2006, 05:57 PM
Oddball Oddball is offline
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Originally Posted by Max Sinister View Post
Oh? What happened to the native Norwegian nobles? Killed by Black Death, Danes / Swedes, or what?
It is wrong to say none excisted , but there were realy few. Norway had a very smal number of nobles in the first place and yes, quite a few of those were again killed by the plague, and the Union with Denmark from 1397 made sure that hardly anyone new native were apointed.

The society in Norway also had little to offer the nobility, as the pesants vere among the most free in Europe
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Old October 10th, 2006, 06:04 PM
Umbral Umbral is offline
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Originally Posted by Oddball View Post
Disagree

A different Napoleonic war with D-N on the winning side could very well see the union last. D and N had mutch mutch more in common with each other than N and Sweden
Possibly there were things in common. We never felt Danish, though, and there was always considerable resentment. The Danes would have to have kept control of a country that considered them foreigners, through the century of Romantic Nationalism.
I suspect either giving more and more independence, or clamping down tight would have been the only options.

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Oh? What happened to the native Norwegian nobles? Killed by Black Death, Danes / Swedes, or what?
Crowded out by Danish nobility. Also, the concept of nobility never really took root as deeply in Norway as the rest of Scandianvia. A lot of the lands were in areas ceded to Sweden.
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  #14  
Old October 10th, 2006, 06:14 PM
Oddball Oddball is offline
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Originally Posted by Umbral View Post
We never felt Danish,
So, you are Norwegian

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though, and there was always considerable resentment. The Danes would have to have kept control of a country that considered them foreigners, through the century of Romantic Nationalism.
I suspect either giving more and more independence, or clamping down tight would have been the only options.
Disagree. During the Danish periode, there existed little resentment. Not until the 1860thies under the Swedes did any real oposition toforeign rule emerge.
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Old October 10th, 2006, 06:43 PM
Umbral Umbral is offline
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Originally Posted by Oddball View Post
So, you are Norwegian
Yes.

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Disagree. During the Danish periode, there existed little resentment. Not until the 1860thies under the Swedes did any real oposition toforeign rule emerge.
Now, this is rather wrong. The Norwegian term for the union is "Firehunderårsnatta" -The night that lasted four hudred years.

Even today.

The Norwegian heroes of the time were people who stole from the taxmen, or killed a sheriff. A theme prevalent in the fairytales of Asbjørnsen and Moe. Listen to the local stories for a while. The resentment still runs deep.

Is is often considered that if the European Union had been called something different, Norway might not have voted against joining it, repeatedly. Three hundred years later, most people doesn't want to join a "union" again.

Last edited by Umbral; October 10th, 2006 at 06:51 PM.. Reason: That bit was wrong.
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Old October 10th, 2006, 07:11 PM
Oddball Oddball is offline
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Originally Posted by Umbral View Post
Yes.
Now, this is rather wrong. The Norwegian term for the union is "Firehunderårsnatta" -The night that lasted four hudred years.

Even today.
Obviousley that term has to have been invented AFTER those four hundred years...

Quote:
The Norwegian heroes of the time were people who stole from the taxmen, or killed a sheriff. A theme prevalent in the fairytales of Asbjørnsen and Moe. Listen to the local stories for a while. The resentment still runs deep.
A & M were active in the 1830thies, during the Swedish periode. Yes I am aware of the resentement, but it was directed against the authorities in general, not the danish. We Norwegians have a long history of that poit of view (sadly not today ) and can also be related to the free position of the middleage peasant.
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  #17  
Old October 10th, 2006, 07:25 PM
Umbral Umbral is offline
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Obviousley that term has to have been invented AFTER those four hundred years...
Yes, it is normally attributed to Ibsen. It was considered apt enough to stick, though.

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A & M were active in the 1830thies, during the Swedish periode. Yes I am aware of the resentement, but it was directed against the authorities in general, not the danish. We Norwegians have a long history of that poit of view (sadly not today ) and can also be related to the free position of the middleage peasant.
Quite true. Note that A & M gathered tales considered old at the time. And the thing about the Danish is that they were the authorities. To a level that surpassed nationality. The educated classes were Danish. And if an Norwegian managed to get an education, it would be in Denmark, and he'd come back speaking Danish, and be considered rather Danish. I suspect if a Danish family fell upon hard times in Norway (moving "nord og ned" [north and down]) they would soon be absorbed and be considered Norwegian.

The languages were rather similar at the start. They are no closer today, I think. After 400 years and a similar starting point, that says quite a bit.
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Old October 10th, 2006, 07:54 PM
EvolvedSaurian EvolvedSaurian is offline
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Originally Posted by Umbral View Post
The Norwegian heroes of the time were people who stole from the taxmen, or killed a sheriff. A theme prevalent in the fairytales of Asbjørnsen and Moe. Listen to the local stories for a while. The resentment still runs deep.
Kinda like Ireland.... Seems like 'empires' are doomed to fail....
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Old October 11th, 2006, 08:52 AM
Redbeard Redbeard is offline
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Interesting thread.

I agree that a different outcome of Napoleonic wars would be significant. If "just" a different peace agreemnet, i.e. Sweden not getting Norway (because Russia doesn't get Finland, bacause...), then the Union is probably going to last for the rest of the 19th century but I agree that it will have to be in a looser and/or mor equal form if it has to live through the 20th century.

If however the OTL isolation/blockade of Norway from 1807-1814 is Pod'ed away, when the British robbed most of the Norwegian and Danish merchant fleets and Norway starved, then I think the Union will have a much better long term survival chance.

In OTL the isolation and the shortlived Norwegian independence in 1814 IMO was the birth of Norwgian nationalism. If combining the PoD'ing away of this event with a political proces giving Norway a more equal position in the Union, then the chances of the Union are drastically improved. The political process could be promoted by the Danish-(mainly) Norwegian merchant fleet continuing the very profitable period before 1801. The PoD could be the British failing to dissolve the Neutrality Union with Russia, Prussia and Sweden. The underlying PoD could be Nelson actually following orders at the battle of Copenhagen in 1801 and the British withdrawing(loosing). If UK ends up seriously pissing off Russia, Prussia, Sweden and Denmark-Norway while also being at war with France, the Napoleonic wars will have to go very differently - so much that a lasting Danish-Norwegian Union will risk ending up as one of the very minor PoDs!

BTW concerning nationalism of various nations we in general have to be very careful, as the nationalist movements of the 19th century usually were very productive in interpreting earlier events as nationalistic in the 19th century sense. A more sober view will see that they very rarely if ever were.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
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