AHC: Ireland still a part of the UK

Genghis Kawaii

Gone Fishin'
As of 2014, the entirety of the island of Ireland must either be a part of the United Kingdom, or be part of an alternative government that consists of Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and England. It would be nice if the British Royal Family remained in power, but it is not a requirement of the challenge.
 

sparky42

I suppose the only option is the Home Rule Act going through in 1914 but Ireland not pushing for dominion status post WW2.

After that point it gets much harder to see a way to get what you want.
 

Broader Liberty

sparky42 said:
I suppose the only option is the Home Rule Act going through in 1914 but Ireland not pushing for dominion status post WW2.

After that point it gets much harder to see a way to get what you want.
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The Home Rule Act did go through in 1914; it got suspended because of the outbreak of World War I. You want to save the last chance for Ireland in the Union try and delay WWI for a couple of years.

Oh, and someone needs to solve the Ulster question.
 

Danth

Stop the Potato Famine.
Honestly that secures the Island in my opinion especially if you crack down on absentee landlords
 

sparky42

Broader Liberty said:
The Home Rule Act did go through in 1914; it got suspended because of the outbreak of World War I. You want to save the last chance for Ireland in the Union try and delay WWI for a couple of years.

Oh, and someone needs to solve the Ulster question.
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Fine implemented if you want to split hairs. same difference.
 

Johannes Parisiensis

Abominable Princess said:
Could you elaborate on the likely effects?
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One less argument for Irish Nationalists and one less reason for concluding "London don't care if we starve".

Making the Home Rule Act 1914 issued sooner - say, 1910 - could have effects.

Not cracking down too strictly on the 1916 Easter Rising could avoid turning the Irish opinion for independence.
 

sparky42

Johannes Parisiensis said:
One less argument for Irish Nationalists and one less reason for concluding "London don't care if we starve".

Making the Home Rule Act 1914 issued sooner - say, 1910 - could have effects.

Not cracking down too strictly on the 1916 Easter Rising could avoid turning the Irish opinion for independence.
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The impact might also change some of the Land Wars with potential impacts.

As for moving the Home Rule earlier, you need the Parliament Act of 1911 to be passed before Home Rule or the Lords would kill it again (maybe tie it to a money bill in 1912 so they can't delay it, though that gives you the Ulster Crisis)

As to post 1916, at best I'd think it would be Home Rule moving towards Dominion Status later on. I'm doubtful that you could extend the Home Rule position out to current days.
 

Genghis Kawaii

Gone Fishin'
Is there any way at all Great Britain and Ireland could end up federalized? Would that likely be amenable to the Irish?
 

Urcea

This is a very difficult AHC to achieve, since there's no one POD within the time frame that achieves this. You'd have to go far back enough that the butterflies might get rid of the United Kingdom of begin with (or any Britain-wide state)

Resentment of the English and resistance to British rule had always existed in Ireland, and that's pretty well documented by the unrest and various wars and rebellions throughout its history. Someone suggested the potato famine not happening, but that doesn't do the trick - remember that the Irish had fought Cromwell with every fiber of their being, and had rebelled again in 1798 (which created the United Kingdom).

The Irish had essentially shown that, under any circumstance, they had no interest in political association with Britain (when you consider that the colonization of Ireland was the flavor of the day for nearly the entirety of Britain's relationship with Ireland). After all, even after the Irish Free State existed as a Dominion, they revoked it some fifteen or so years later. The Irish would most certainly never agree to a federal relationship with Britain, as asked above.

You might need a POD in the 1300s. As such, this AHC is very difficult.
 

Son of Leman Russ

Banned
On the opposite side of the approach, make the Irish got into much bitter and brutal independence wars. And Germans actually help Ireland independence, at least morally if not outright supporting with arms for tye sake of tying up Britain. So when WW2 come, the Ireland Republic join Axis out of spite and attack Britain for the sake of revenge against their English opressors.

And when the wars end, Britain decides to take no more chances and annex/reconquer Ireland by force again. Irish independence get equated with naziism. Of course IRA will be much more depised and war weary people start to simply prefer being ruled under Britain than getting equated with those evil and genocidal Nazis. Britain will be seen as lesser evil, and you will have an united Great Britain in the end.
 

Seleucus

That wouldn't work. It's not like Hungary/Romania/Bulgaria/Finland/the Baltics/etc. lost their independence after WW2.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
The Commonwealth lasts and evolves over time into a

The Commonwealth lasts and evolves over time into a democratic federal state, with the three (former) Kingdoms and Wales represented equally in an upper house and representation by population in a lower house.

The Commonwealth capital is London; the provincial capitals are York (?), Dublin, Edinburgh, and Carnarvon (?).

The "Protector" is a separately elected chief executive (no head of state) and legislative power is by majority control of Parliament, but the chief executive is not an MP.

Judiciary are appointed by the CE, with parliamentary approval.

Basically, the "Agreement of the People" with federal elements we would recognize as "American"...

Best,
 

Genghis Kawaii

Gone Fishin'
TFSmith121 said:
The Commonwealth lasts and evolves over time into a democratic federal state, with the three (former) Kingdoms and Wales represented equally in an upper house and representation by population in a lower house.

The Commonwealth capital is London; the provincial capitals are York (?), Dublin, Edinburgh, and Carnarvon (?).

The "Protector" is a separately elected chief executive (no head of state) and legislative power is by majority control of Parliament, but the chief executive is not an MP.

Judiciary are appointed by the CE, with parliamentary approval.

Basically, the "Agreement of the People" with federal elements we would recognize as "American"...

Best,
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I like it, but how could it be done?
 

Genghis Kawaii

Gone Fishin'
Spelf said:
This is a very difficult AHC to achieve, since there's no one POD within the time frame that achieves this. You'd have to go far back enough that the butterflies might get rid of the United Kingdom of begin with (or any Britain-wide state)

Resentment of the English and resistance to British rule had always existed in Ireland, and that's pretty well documented by the unrest and various wars and rebellions throughout its history. Someone suggested the potato famine not happening, but that doesn't do the trick - remember that the Irish had fought Cromwell with every fiber of their being, and had rebelled again in 1798 (which created the United Kingdom).

The Irish had essentially shown that, under any circumstance, they had no interest in political association with Britain (when you consider that the colonization of Ireland was the flavor of the day for nearly the entirety of Britain's relationship with Ireland). After all, even after the Irish Free State existed as a Dominion, they revoked it some fifteen or so years later. The Irish would most certainly never agree to a federal relationship with Britain, as asked above.

You might need a POD in the 1300s. As such, this AHC is very difficult.
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That makes me wonder what Ireland would be like without Cromwell. Something tells me everyone would be better off without that bastard.
 
Pangur

Pangur

Donor
This is heading into ASB land I hate to say. Lets start with Cromwell - take him out of the equation and he is replaced with someone else. Cromwell's activities in Ireland where driven by both religious hate and the need to bring the English civil war to an complete win. Next observation is that at the time setting up colonies was what larger nations did - that's what Ireland was - a colony. It's all down hill from there.
 

Urcea

Pangur said:
This is heading into ASB land I hate to say. Lets start with Cromwell - take him out of the equation and he is replaced with someone else. Cromwell's activities in Ireland where driven by both religious hate and the need to bring the English civil war to an complete win. Next observation is that at the time setting up colonies was what larger nations did - that's what Ireland was - a colony. It's all down hill from there.
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Yeah. There was anti-English sentiment even before Cromwell, he just really brought it to a head. This AHC is very very difficult.
 
Pangur

Pangur

Donor
Spelf said:
Yeah. There was anti-English sentiment even before Cromwell, he just really brought it to a head. This AHC is very very difficult.
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There is somewhat out there way - actually its off the wall:D

Have the UK be more EC friendly - then have the EC move to being a nation- federal in nature. The islands of Ireland and Scotland become one province of this new nation (all provinces are perhaps based maybe on language?) Any way this province has got four states.
 

Genghis Kawaii

Gone Fishin'
Pangur said:
This is heading into ASB land I hate to say. Lets start with Cromwell - take him out of the equation and he is replaced with someone else. Cromwell's activities in Ireland where driven by both religious hate and the need to bring the English civil war to an complete win. Next observation is that at the time setting up colonies was what larger nations did - that's what Ireland was - a colony. It's all down hill from there.
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That gives me an idea. Instead of Cromwell, take down Henry IIIV in early 1532. Mary has the throne, Elizabeth was never concieved, England is still Catholic and probably going to stay that way, and the OTL English Civil War is butterflied to hell and gone.
 

SlideAway

Spelf said:
This is a very difficult AHC to achieve, since there's no one POD within the time frame that achieves this. You'd have to go far back enough that the butterflies might get rid of the United Kingdom of begin with (or any Britain-wide state)

Resentment of the English and resistance to British rule had always existed in Ireland, and that's pretty well documented by the unrest and various wars and rebellions throughout its history. Someone suggested the potato famine not happening, but that doesn't do the trick - remember that the Irish had fought Cromwell with every fiber of their being, and had rebelled again in 1798 (which created the United Kingdom).

The Irish had essentially shown that, under any circumstance, they had no interest in political association with Britain (when you consider that the colonization of Ireland was the flavor of the day for nearly the entirety of Britain's relationship with Ireland). After all, even after the Irish Free State existed as a Dominion, they revoked it some fifteen or so years later. The Irish would most certainly never agree to a federal relationship with Britain, as asked above.

You might need a POD in the 1300s. As such, this AHC is very difficult.
Click to expand...

I disagree. This isn't *THAT* farfetched, even post-1900. The vast majority of Irish in the early part of the 20th Century were not looking towards full independence. It was only the conscription crisis, the Easter Rising and the British government's response that swung public opinion towards the radical side of the nationalist movement. And even the eventual switch from a dominion to a republic was not inevitable -- there was a considerable section of Irish opinion which favored maintaining some links with Britain. Much of the impetus for the declaration of the republic was driven by De Valera's personal politics.

If WWI had not broken out and the Third Home Rule Bill was implemented — albeit likely with an opt-out for Ulster — it's entirely possible that Ireland to this day would be an internally self-governing part of the UK, not unlike present-day Scotland. (Though probably with greater powers.)
 
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